Interview with Lena Fließbach
EP20 — Subtext & Discourse Art World Podcast (Full Transcript)
Lena Fliessbach (b. 1982, Hamburg) has been working as a curator and author since 2007. She completed her studies in art history, modern history and Latin American studies at the Free University of Berlin and the Universidad de Granada, Spain in 2010 with the master’s thesis “Aspects of Staging in Contemporary Street Photography”.
From 2010 to 2011 she worked at Wenders Images and organised various exhibitions and book projects for Donata and Wim Wenders. After which she was the first participant in the two year curatorial program at Galerie im Turm, the municipal gallery Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg. Since then Lena has worked as an independent curator on a number of significant exhibition projects, often in collaboration with Hannah Beck-Mannagetta, which typically include an educational component under the title Walk the Talk.
Her latest exhibition ZERO WASTE “takes a critical look at the current condition of our planet but also aims to imagine possible solutions, encourage alternative scopes of action, and propose visions for the future.” More information about ZERO WASTE is available on the website of the Museum der bildenden Künste Leipzig, as well as the official exhibition instagram account.
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Interview with Lena Fließbach recorded by Michael Dooney on 28. February 2020 in Wedding-Berlin, Germany. Below is a full transcript of their conversation which has been edited slightly for ease of reading.
Michael Dooney: Welcome to Subtext & Discourse. I’m your host, Michael Dooney. I don’t like adding a date to these episodes. But given the current circumstances, I think it’s worth noting that today is Monday 30th of March 2020. Like most I’m still struggling to comprehend how much the world has changed since I recorded this last interview only four weeks ago.
On the 28th of February, I met up with Berlin based curator and author Lena Fliessbach, not only to learn about her journey in the art world, but to hear more about her latest exhibition ZERO WASTE at the Museum of Visual Arts in Leipzig. The exhibition was scheduled to open last Thursday on the 26th of March however, like all events and public gatherings, it has been postponed until further notice.
*** New Exhibition Dates: 25 June until 08 November 2020 ***
This exhibition is of particular relevance as it showcases, artists addressing themes, such as sustainability, globalisation, and industrialised animal agriculture, which whether we like it or not, are going to have to contend with. So without giving everything away, I hope you enjoy listening to my conversation with Lena.
Lena Fließbach: But I think we met in the gallery and then we met on different occasions in the art scene.
Michael Dooney: Maybe it was before you did the Schau Fenster show
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, definitely.
Michael Dooney: Because you did the show in Charlottenburg at that persons house with all the photography.
Lena Fließbach: Oh, have you been there?
Michael Dooney: Yeah.
Lena Fließbach: This is Hannah’s house.
Michael Dooney: Really? Oh, Okay.
Lena Fließbach: This is maybe where we met together? Also, I mean, oh, yeah, I invited you to that because…of course. Okay. That was like a private show, this was one of the projects that Hannah and I did together.
Michael Dooney: Yeah.
Lena Fließbach: It’s true that there were a lot of photographers involved also.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, that must be why then. I guess that’s the link that we had initially, it was through photography, but then we’ve both been branching into different things. The main reason I wanted to meet up to talk was the ZERO WASTE exhibition that you have coming up at the Fine Art Museum in Leipzig
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, it’s the Museum of Fine Arts — Museum der bildenden Künste Leipzig — and it’s a huge museum. I think at the moment they have 16 exhibitions running parallel from the Middle Ages, Impressionism and also Contemporary Art. Definitely for me and Hannah, it’s the biggest show we ever curated.
Michael Dooney: Well maybe we can… like how they do in a movie, and they show the end and then they go back to the beginning. Because you’re quite… even to think to get to that point, because you don’t work for the museum. Essentially you’re an independent curator. I imagine a lot of curators when they’re at university or when they’re studying or when they get into the field, that’s the dream exhibition to have. You didn’t start at that point. Were you an artist before?
Lena Fließbach: No, I was never an artist. I studied Art History, quite classic… and then already during my studies, I started to organise exhibitions and to make contacts with the art schools, some artists, some other people who wanted to do some art projects and we just started to experiment and try out things.
Michael Dooney: Yeah. Was this in Berlin?
Lena Fließbach: In Berlin, yes, I studied at the Free University — Freie Universität — in Berlin, and I think I had one or two courses in the university where we connected with art schools and this was really helpful. You know, for example, there was one course, us, the Art History students, we wrote some texts for an exhibition for the students of the Weißensee Art School. I’m still friends with some of them, you know, those connections, they were really helpful because basically Art History, it’s more conservative, more classic. It’s more…
Michael Dooney: Yeah, it’s Art History. Not future…
Lena Fließbach: Of course. Most of the people who studied Art History they end up, for example, as a Professor or an Art Historian somewhere and what I’m doing now working as an Independent Curator in Contemporary Art is a little bit different because, for example in the University at this moment, we didn’t have any Professor who was specialised in Contemporary Art.
Michael Dooney: Really?
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, just in the end in my last year, one Professor came to our University and of course in Berlin it’s more easy because you can also visit classes at the Humboldt University. You can go to the UdK University of Arts and you are more flexible. You can visit all the museums, all the exhibitions, but still, nobody told me — Okay, you can be an Independent Curator with these studies — , you know.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, I never really thought of it like that, because if somebody goes to study Geography, it’s pretty much assumed you’re going to be a Geography teacher. I guess if you’re doing Art History, you’re working for a museum in the archives and looking after existing material. But in terms of looking towards what’s either happening currently or what’s going to happen, maybe that’s why there’s been a bit of an influx in curatorial studies? Because before there weren’t really courses just dedicated to curating, whereas now there are. So from that point, the context of photography… actually, before that you went to Spain as well?
Lena Fließbach: Oh, that’s true, yeah. It was in 2005, 2006. I did my Erasmus year in Spain and I lived in Granada. You know, have you been to Granada? It’s the city in the south of Spain and Andalusia, and where the Alhambra is. It’s a very special city and I really loved to live there, to be there. I travelled to Morocco and travelled also to other cities in the south of Spain. There’s also Cordoba, Seville, like a lot of cities with cultural heritage. I also learned Spanish, I mean, I could start speak a little bit of Spanish before, but then
Michael Dooney: ...when you’re immersed in it.
Lena Fließbach: Yeah because also the accent in the south of Spain is very, very strong. So it’s a little bit like if you were to come to Austria and try to learn German, you know, so I was very proud when I could understand the people and yeah… it was really nice to learn another language.
Michael Dooney: I guess from a… maybe not from an educational studying point of view, but personally maybe it had quite an impact on you? Living and working there or studying?
Lena Fließbach: Definitely I mean it was a totally different experience for me because I come from Hamburg which is quite a big city and then I lived in Berlin, and I mean you also live in Berlin, you know what it’s like. You always need at least half an hour to meet up with someone or go somewhere and in Granada you can walk everywhere. I was walking to the university and to meet up with friends, actually I enjoyed also the weather. It is hot but you can…Granada is also close to the mountains. So you can, if you want you can ski and swim in the sea on the same day.
Michael Dooney: I didn’t know there was skiing in Spain!
Lena Fließbach: Yeah. Personally, I think it’s very nice to just live in different parts of the world and to meet other people and I still have loads of connections to Spain.
Michael Dooney: So I’m trying to piece together what part of your earlier education studies this would have been, but your thesis was on Street Photography? So was the interest in photography prior to you studying Art History? Or that happened during?
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, I think in… I had some classes at university in the history of Photography and then in the end, also one or two classes about Contemporary Photography and I started more and more to visit exhibitions and to meet up with artists and I was very interested in photography at that moment. So I decided to write my thesis about it, because I think it’s the best, what you can do is to write about something that you really like. So my thesis was about Aspects of Staging in Contemporary Street Photography. I wrote also about the history of Street Photography and then I wrote about three photographers, Tobias Zielony, Philip-Lorca diCorcia and Beat Strueli. It was in 2010, so it’s already 10 years ago.
Michael Dooney: Was it from that, that you ended up working for the Wim and Donata Wenders Sammlung?
Lena Fließbach: Ja, actually yes, I finished my studies and then one week later I think I started my first job for Wim and Donata Wenders.
Michael Dooney: Oh, wow. You just applied?
Lena Fließbach: I just applied. I mean, I knew one of the colleagues who worked there. I knew… or no, it was like a friend of mine who was also a photographer, he told me about it because a friend of another friend was working there and then I applied. Wim has a production company for his movies, but also another small company which is focused on the whole archive of Donata Wenders and Wim Wenders still photography archive and…
Michael Dooney: …and that’s their personal photography?
Lena Fließbach: It’s their personal photography, like all the negatives, all the projects, you somehow have to archive it or organise a structure so you can find the images again, and we also organised exhibitions. For example, when they publish photographs and magazines or books, we organised also some book projects or also when people wanted to buy a photograph.
Michael Dooney: Oh, like the licensing and things like that.
Lena Fließbach: The license. Yes.
Michael Dooney: So comparing that experience to when you studied Art History, the archival aspect of it would have been what you would have done during university, but everything else I assume would have been new? Almost?
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, it was new. It was definitely new but it was great to learn everything there, because, you know, this company it’s very small we were only like two people. So it was very nice for me to work with photographers which have amazing work, Wim and also Donata. Also to organise exhibitions in professional Art Galleries. I wasn’t the curator but I helped to organise everything and I learned a lot
Michael Dooney: And then after that, is that when you went to Turm?
Lena Fließbach: After that I went to Galerie im Turm.
Michael Dooney: Yeah so Gallery in the Tower.
Lena Fließbach: Gallery in the Tower, yeah. Galerie im Turm, yeah, Gallery in the Tower.
Michael Dooney: I always get confused, if it’s Frankfurter Tor or Frankfurter Allee.
Lena Fließbach: Frankfurter Tor yeah, I mean, Frankfurter Allee is close to there. But Frankfurter Tor is the…
Michael Dooney: Warschauerstrasse, the intersection to Kreuzberg.
Lena Fließbach: Yes, Exactly.
Michael Dooney: So would you say that that was your first curatorial experience?
Lena Fließbach: I organised some exhibitions before, during my studies, but it was the first time I really had a space where I could try everything out and experiment and organise exhibitions. And you know the Galerie im Turm, the gallerist retired and he was there for like loads of years and then they started a new concept, and the concept, it’s like a trainee program or something like that.
Michael Dooney: That is the impression that I got, because its also connected to the Kunstraum or Kunstlerhaus Betanien?
Lena Fließbach: Exactly, The Kunstraum Kreuzberg Bethanien. Stefan Bauer, he came up with the idea to make a trainee program, which means that for two years, there’s always a curator or a team and they can basically do whatever they want with the space for two years, and then another curator starts to work there. And I was actually the first one in this program.
Michael Dooney: Wow.
Lena Fließbach: I mean, it wasn’t that easy also, because the people who came there, they weren’t used to something different.
Michael Dooney: Oh before that it was, I guess, an official gallery.
Lena Fließbach: I mean it’s not a commercial gallery, I have to say. It’s a… how do you say a Communal Gallery? Municipal Gallery? How do you say that?
Michael Dooney: I mean, people say, a non-for-profit space or if it’s a project room…
Lena Fließbach: No, it’s not… It’s from the City. It’s financed by the…
Michael Dooney: Maybe it is a communal gallery?
Lena Fließbach: Communal gallery I think, because it’s financed by Friedrichshain Kreuzberg. So that’s a huge difference of course, because you don’t have to think about if you can sell the works or anything and just focus on the art or the artists that you’re interested in. For me, it was amazing to be there because I had the possibility to organise exhibitions and for two years to have a space. I had a very small budget, I think I organised eight exhibitions each year, so it was quite ambitious. Also some projects in the public space before, in front of the gallery and also events like performances, lectures, things like that.
Michael Dooney: What year was this?
Lena Fließbach: 2011 and 2012.
Michael Dooney: I mean, there’s a good chance that I went to some of these without realising.
Lena Fließbach: Oh, yeah, probably.
Michael Dooney: Yeah. Because I mean, it’s very close. I live near there, so…
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, sure.
Michael Dooney: I probably have been a few times. I mean, the area has changed quite a bit now because there used to be a lot of galleries along Karl Marx Alle but they’ve all turned into furniture shops or real estate agents.
Lena Fließbach: I know it has changed.
Michael Dooney: Once you’d finished the two years of the program in Galerie im Turm, what happened next?
Lena Fließbach: I decided to be an Independent Curator afterwards, I started my own company. Yeah, that was the next step. So again, of course, always, it has its advantages and disadvantages. You also know that, but I really like it. Sometimes also institutions come up to me and ask me if I would like to curate a show or write a text or do a workshop.
Michael Dooney: So how is it then, as an independent curator… what is involved? You’re writing texts, you’re obviously putting exhibitions together. But are people approaching you? Is it like any kind of independent work where you’re always trying to find the next project?
Lena Fließbach: Usually, I think it is like every kind of independent work. You’re always like involved in something, you know, and you are working on a project but you always have to think about a little bit what comes next. You know, of course, because you need the money, it’s like that. I think it’s a mixture of people or institutions asking me if I would like to do a job and then sometimes also I don’t have the time because I’m involved in something or I have the time and then I can do it, and I’m working on my own concepts, you know, my own exhibitions, my ideas. I think, as an Independent Curator, you work on a lot of ideas, and I have so many projects on my desk which haven’t been realised yet, for example, because you always need some funding. You always need an institution, you need partners to cooperate with.
Michael Dooney: You, I think briefly mentioned, not today, but we spoke before, that you were working for the Hamburger Bahnhof for a while? The Museum of Contemporary Art in Berlin?
Lena Fließbach: Mm hmm. That was in 2017, 2018. They had this exhibition Hello World there. It was actually comprised by a lot of exhibitions and it was maybe the first time one project was shown in the whole Hamburger Bahnhof, like in every space. They started a lot of years in advance but I only worked one year or one and a half years for them and I actually worked for the educational program. But we also organised one part of the exhibition and we also organised an event program and that’s what I did several times before. Also with my colleague Hannah Beck Mannagetta. I think in 2014, Hannah and me, we had our first project together, and it was the event program for the graduate exhibition of the Art School Weißensee.
Michael Dooney: Weißeensee, oh you mentioned Weißensee before when you were at the Freie Universität. So the Weißensee School, they invited you back or you approached them?
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, I think it was just like I spoke to some friends, who studied still at the art school and they said, — Oh, yeah, you know, we’re looking for someone. — and it was funny because Hannah, at the same time, spoke to other friends, and they told her the same, and at the same time, we started meeting up and exchanging our experiences…
Michael Dooney: Oh, you didn’t know each other before then?
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, we… it was the same time we started to know each other better. We know each other from the art scene, but we started to talk more at some openings, and we already had said, — Oh yeah, we could do a project together — and it was really funny because then it was obvious! Okay, let’s do it together, you know, and we from then on, we did several projects together.
Michael Dooney: Do you still work independently or you mostly work together with Hannah on your exhibitions?
Lena Fließbach: I think our own concepts, like our own ideas we do mainly together, not all of them, but mainly, and I did some jobs on my own. For the Hamburger Bahnhof, for example… of course we developed the program, we developed the space together with Susanne Weiß and Daniela Bystron, that it was also a job. For example, for the Museum of Fine Arts, now the ZERO WASTE exhibition, it’s different because it was my idea and Hannah and me, we developed the concept together. Everything from the beginning.
Michael Dooney: I guess you’re like Lennon and McCartney, both your names are on there. It’s maybe less common that you would have a pair of curators, you’d have two people working together, but how is it in your experience? Is it mostly curators, like — no it’s my vision, I want to do this — or you’ll have groups of people collaborating.
Lena Fließbach: I’m sure it’s difficult to find people to work with and it really works very well. I think I’m very lucky that I found Hannah and we can work together that well and I think that it’s so great to have an exchange. You know, when we talk about our plans and our concepts, so many ideas come up. You know what I mean?
Michael Dooney: Yes, absolutely.
Lena Fließbach: I have a lot of friends, for example, who are not in the art scene. Of course I have also a lot of friends in the art scene, but I don’t talk to them like every day, you know, and I think it’s, it’s very, very… fruchtbar?
Michael Dooney: Fruchtbar… fruitful?
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Lena Fließbach: Yeah, maybe. Like, a lot of ideas come up. And it’s also nice to have a person who can continue to work when you have, for example, another job.
Michael Dooney: Yeah that must be good.
Lena Fließbach: So it’s very helpful, and yeah, it’s fun for me! We even write text together.
Michael Dooney: Yeah?
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, for us it’s fun. For example, now our exhibition for the Museum of Fine Arts, it’s a lot of work, of course, and it’s also nice to share.
Michael Dooney: I think even if I think about my own experience within the creative communities, so running the gallery or with doing music, because it is such an intense exercise, having another person to exchange or to debrief with or to get feedback from is hugely beneficial. I think it can be really underestimated how helpful it can be. And like you mentioned before, with new ideas being generated — definitely from my own experience — that when you’ve got two people working together, one person puts an idea forward, and that other person reacts off that idea; Then you get a new idea from the exchange that neither of you would have developed by yourself.
Lena Fließbach: Definitely. And of course, you have also the communication with the artists. We develop also a lot of ideas and our concepts when we make the studio visits and when we talk to artists or to other people in the art scene, but it’s something different when you work that closely together. You know, and you can really speak about some details, you know, that other people maybe are not that interested like in every detail, you know?
Michael Dooney: Was there a specific project over the past few years that was a really defining moment for you? I mean, I’d say for both of you, but I guess Hannah isn’t here…
Lena Fließbach: Well, I think our exhibition in Vienna in 2016. We organised an exhibition together at Kunsthalle Exnergasse in Vienna, and yeah… so this was the biggest project until then. It was a group show called The Impossibility of Being — Über die Unmöglichkeit des Seins.
Michael Dooney: Was that the first international one?
Lena Fließbach: It was the first exhibition outside of Berlin, but it was mostly with artists from Berlin.
Michael Dooney: But still…
Lena Fließbach: But still, it was in Vienna of course.
Michael Dooney: Uncharted territory.
Lena Fließbach: Definitely, it makes such a big difference. I mean, only the transport, for example. You have to organise that all the artworks somehow will be there. Things like that.
Michael Dooney: …and to bring them back as well.
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, it’s something else then. But this was definitely a great experience, already four years ago. Hannah and me we both have families now and it’s also nice to have someone you can rely on when you, for example, just got a baby.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, absolutely. Oh that’s nice. So with the current exhibition that opens in… is it opening in March?
Lena Fließbach: Yes. The 26th of March is the opening, it’s very soon.
Michael Dooney: Yes, how many years or how… what was the kind of the… I’ve lost all of my words this morning… the planning process for that one?
Lena Fließbach: So, Hannah and me, as I said before, we have like loads of projects on our desk, and loads of projects we are kind of working on or have on our minds; and sometimes we just have lunch together and speak about the ideas we have, and then we decide on which ideas we want to focus, and which ideas we really want to try to get the money for and to find an institution and things like that. And actually, I came up with the ZERO WASTE idea, because in my private life, I try to live more kind of this minimalism lifestyle, and I… it’s always a few years ago you know, I started to consume less, try to avoid packages, and I live vegetarian and things like that, and just to be a little bit more responsible in my consumer behaviour. I always had the vision as a curator to have also a political social impact. I knew that I would love to do something which could really inspire other institutions, or to change really something.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, definitely.
Lena Fließbach: So I came up with this idea. It was just an initial idea, in the beginning. Then Hannah and I, we already knew a lot of artists who were working on topics like sustainability. We knew also some artists who just have, for example, one work which could fit in the concept and then we just started to speak with people, to visit some artists in their studio. To look at artworks, to speak about potential site specific works, things like that, and we tried to get a funding. It was actually the first time that we had the money first and then we started to search for an institution, a location. So we presented our first concept to the Umwelt Bundesamt, — The German Environmental Agency — and they liked it, but you know what you have to imagine, it’s all a very, very long process.
Michael Dooney: Oh, yeah, absolutely
Lena Fließbach: We started two and a half years ago, so it was long before the Friday’s for Future movements and long before those topics of sustainability… They are really, kind of high fashion now and it was before that. It’s a long process to get the money, to find a location and things like that.
Michael Dooney: I guess audiences maybe don’t realise that sometimes, they might think — Oh the Fine Art Museum is on trend — but then we started planning this exhibition three years ago.
Lena Fließbach: I know, definitely. In 2019 we suddenly thought, — Oh, my god! Now everyone is talking about this subject! What do we do? — but then we decided…
Michael Dooney: That must be good though, surely?
Lena Fließbach: Exactly, we decided to like it, and we said, okay. It’s good, because that’s what we want, that everyone is talking about it. Maybe there’s some other shows with similar topics, but that’s what we want, because we want the change in the world, and we want people to talk about the environment and the relationship of the culture and nature. So it’s the best thing that can happen.
Michael Dooney: Absolutely. Just as a side note then, do you think, not just artists, but then curators have a social responsibility to try to make people aware of topics such as sustainability and the environment?
Lena Fließbach: Well, I think you definitely have a responsibility as a curator and as an artist. I think that art is like a catalyst, and exhibitions can be like a catalyst, and can make a change. Definitely, you know, because we create a space where people come together, where people talk about different topics. I think it definitely can make a change and I feel responsible also, and I think we, as individuals, you really have to do something. It’s already five past twelve. You really have to react now. That’s what we are trying to do basically, and what a lot of artists we work with try to do. Together we create a project which hopefully can make a little bit of difference.
Michael Dooney: Thinking about that, in the context of this show, will there be parallel talks, presentations, events, with the goal of raising awareness and getting people to think about their own behaviour, and maybe change for the better?
Lena Fließbach: The first project that Hannah and I did together was an event program, the one I told you about, this program was interdisciplinary. So what we did was, we invited not only curators, gallerists, to come to the graduate exhibition, but also some scientists and people from very different backgrounds. We thought about some topics from the graduate exhibition and then we had those talks. We developed the ‘Walk the Talk’ format and that’s what we still do and we will also do now for the ZERO WASTE show. Of course, it is a contemporary art show, what we are doing, and that’s also important for us and it’s important for the artists that it is contemporary art. It’s not a scientific exhibition. It is a show in a big Museum of Fine Arts. We speak with the arts, but also we have this event program and we also work with some local partners. For example, in Leipzig, there’s a repair cafe, and they will do a repair cafe in the exhibition. So people can come there and instead of buying something new, there will be experts helping them to repair things, and we will have some DIY workshops and things like that also.
Michael Dooney: You mentioned you were doing programs parallel. Thinking in terms of an exhibition, and I mean, we’ve tried to do this with the gallery, but it’s always, I think it’s difficult planning with time, getting people together, especially in Berlin, because there’s always 10 other things you could be doing, rather than the exhibition being the endpoint, it’s almost the starting point. So you have the exhibition, but then from that, it initiates a dialogue, or that ask questions so that people can either get a direct connection with the artist, with the work, and then maybe new ideas are brought to them rather than going to the show, and that being where it stops. In a sense, that’s almost like where it starts for the audience, perhaps?
Lena Fließbach: Definitely, I think the arts outreach program and art mediation is always is a part that I’m thinking of from the beginning when I plan an exhibition. Because it’s so important to think, — Okay, what people will come to the exhibition? What do they expect? What events can we offer? — We are very lucky now, to be in Leipzig, because it’s, as you said, in Berlin, you have a lot of Konkurrenz (competition) of course. I mean, there’s loads of events and in Leipzig, maybe it’s a little bit easier and also, it isn’t a big museum and our ‘Walk the Talk’, it will be on the same time that they usually have the guided tours.
Michael Dooney: Oh, perfect.
Lena Fließbach: So I think this is really great and then also of the team of the Kunstvermittlung (outreach), they help us a lot and they will be there and, you know, contextualise everything and, of course we are very lucky.
Michael Dooney: I remember years ago when I went to Düsseldorf and I met with some different Institute’s and with smaller galleries, and I think… Because they’re still cities, Leipzig is still a city, but because it’s a smaller community, you know that — if I’m not doing it, then no one’s going to do it — and everybody often bands together. Whereas I think, for better or worse, we get a bit spoiled sometimes in Berlin, you’re like, — Oh, I can just go to that — or — it’ll be on for longer — or — there’s something else to go and see.
Lena Fließbach: I know and then it’s over.
Michael Dooney: Yeah and then you miss it. So that’s always the downside. Actually, I always forget how far is Leipzig from Berlin?
Lena Fließbach: It’s very close. It’s just like one hour and fifteen minutes by train. For us it’s amazing because I think a lot of people from Berlin will also come to the opening and also to come and see the exhibition. It is also great because we think this ZERO WASTE, it’s not only the topic of the show, but we think of it as a whole concept. We try to avoid, as much as possible, like the material for the artworks. For example, we show a video and a projection of Mika Rottenberg and she is famous for her huge installations, video installations, and Mika and we decided together to only show the video and not build something new for the exhibition. Then some other objects and it was like a sculpture, which was in Australia, for example, we won’t show it because otherwise we would have transported it. There are some other transports we avoided for the show. We work with Andreas Greiner the artist and he is since a few years he’s working on some projects with trees and the forest. For our exhibition he will calculate the CO2 footprint of the exhibition. The flights, train, everything, like materials, he will calculate everything and then we will try to compensate it by planting trees with his artistic project. I think it would be great to inspire also other institutions because of course, you can do a show about sustainability and about zero waste, but what do you do yourself? You know, also not in your private life, but in your professional life.
Michael Dooney: Exactly.
Lena Fließbach: And the institutions, they make exhibitions, for example, and then they throw all the material just away after the exhibition. What happens to all the materials? For example, we have been now in Leipzig several times and ask them what we can use for our exhibitions. You know if they can keep something for us which we can use for other installations, or maybe like build a plinth, or we can use plinths, which they already have. Things like that, you know, just small things.
Michael Dooney: I guess it’s out of the ordinary, it’s not extreme, you kind of think in practical terms. Why don’t we do this more often?
Lena Fließbach: Exactly.
Michael Dooney: With exhibitions and with events and with so many things, even if the message is ‘let’s reduce our waste’, the event itself creates a lot of waste. Then you kind of think, are we missing the irony here with how much we’re championing what we’re doing, but we’re part of the problem. Until you can, I guess, set a good example or find ways of conveying the message that supports the message, and it sounds like — without seeing it, and hearing the planning and the insight — the ZERO WASTE walks the talk by saying, well, we’re talking about this, but look, we’re actually doing it. And this is how we’ve reduced our carbon footprint or our environmental impact.
Lena Fließbach: Of course, and you always have to find a balance. I mean, zero waste is impossible, of course zero is impossible. But we also decided to have some flights, for example, two artists who come from Indonesia, they are also coming to Leipzig, but we organised that all the artists who come from abroad and who need to have a long distance fight that they have other projects in Germany or maybe Europe. So that nobody comes only for our exhibition and I think this is also a way, because I think you can have a Skype interview or something, but it’s not the same. I think it’s very important to have a discussion in person and to exchange. For us, it was very important to have international artists who also live in different parts of the world, because the waste problem is different in Indonesia, for example, than in Germany, or it’s different in South Africa. For example, Vibha Galhotra lives in New Delhi in India and she told us that her family, and her friends, and she herself, they have all really severe health problems because of the particulate matters in the air — because of the smog and the dust problems are really, really huge problem. Lucky us, it’s not that big a problem here in Berlin, and she also reflects on those problems and in her work. So this is really great that we can have really the discussion in Leipzig together. So, I mean, we could have said, okay, we won’t pay any flights. But, you know, I think this makes sense.
Michael Dooney: Yeah exactly. You need to have a trade off. You can’t just think — we’ll do nothing.
Lena Fließbach: Yeah and we didn’t want to exclude the people who don’t live in Leipzig or Berlin. Also, you know, you have to find a balance, but I think it’s always like that, you know. When, for example, some people they try to avoid flying 10 times a year, and other people maybe live vegan, and other people do something else, but it’s impossible to be perfect. And of course, the politics have to do something. Of course you can do every single one can do something, but the responsibility is also somewhere else.
Michael Dooney: Definitely I think things need to come from a policy level. I guess from a top down the government do need to guide people and be a good… be good role models that… I mean yeah you mentioned before veganism, my wife and I are vegan since… I always forget when now, a few years, maybe four or five years? I can’t remember exactly when it was. And maybe just because of how we… our personalities are and our thinking that once we know, — this is the way that something is. I can’t un-know that information now. I have to change my behaviour — Like the classic excuse, I think with recycling is people go — oh but, you know, this big company, they deposit this amount of waste into the ocean — or — They burn all this stuff. So what difference does it make if I split up my rubbish into the different coloured bins. — Rather than looking at it like that, I’d rather think — I know that I’m not part of the problem. I know that I’m doing as much as I can, even if all these other industries and other people are doing it. — I think if enough people in the population or the general public are making a difference, then it incentives larger companies to do something because they realise when people make decisions about things — they make decisions with when they spend money. Even thinking about… in the time that I’ve lived in Berlin, you can get at Lidl and at Aldi, like the cheap, cheap supermarkets you can get vegan products. Like it’s not just, you have to go to the Bioladen (Organic Grocery) or you have to go to one of the posh supermarkets that’s got everything that’s ecological and locally sourced, should you be making the right decisions. And of course at Lidl and those places, maybe isn’t the best, but even the fact that a lot of the products that they stock now they have like the Ⓥ on them, and they say yeah, this is vegan, this is vegan. It shows that companies are recognising that people make decisions based on whether it’s vegan or if it’s not vegan, or if it’s fair trade or not fair trade. For the most part people probably still — this one’s five euros, this one’s three, I’ll get the one that’s three because it’s cheaper. But more people I think now are deciding based on — Am I gonna feel okay about this being shipped from South America, from somewhere I don’t know about? — or — do I want to get the ones that have grown around the corner? — Even if I have to pay an extra two euros?
Lena Fließbach: Sometimes it’s also difficult to decide, of course, because sometimes you have to decide okay, — do I buy the organic tomatoes which are grown in Spain — for example under like huge amounts of plastic? Or do I buy the non organic tomatoes which are grown around the corner? You know, things like that, it’s very difficult. But I think what you mentioned before that people think that they cannot make a difference. I think you just have to imagine if like millions of people decide, “okay, I won’t buy…” for example, “this coffee to go” or something. If it’s millions…
Michael Dooney: Yeah.
Lena Fließbach: That make these decisions, it’s millions (of) cups, which you avoid. Of course, it makes a difference. Of course, it makes a difference and as I said, it’s not possible to be perfect.
Michael Dooney: No. I remember once when we were at dinner… I guess as a vegan, you come up against this where people go — oh do you want to try the cake? — or whatever, and you’re like, “no, no, it’s ok, I won’t have anything” and they keep pushing and pushing and you’re like “ok look, I’m a vegan. I can’t eat it for that reason.” And then — Oh, you’re drinking wine, is that wine vegan? — “Okay, I’m 95%” or “I’m, you know, I’m almost doing everything that I can.”
Lena Fließbach: That’s whataboutism. Yeah, what about the wine?
Michael Dooney: I think the thing is, when people go, — oh, but you’re not being completely sustainable. — It’s like, — well, I don’t live in a sustainable world, like, there’s only so many things that I can do.
Lena Fließbach: And it’s okay! I think it has so much to do with the things you’re used to do, you know? For example, I’m just used to having my own bottle, for example with me, or just like a small bag in case I want to buy something a bread or whatever.
Michael Dooney: Same, I always have it with me.
Lena Fließbach: I just have the bag you know, I just have it, always in my rucksack with me you know. Things like that, I think it’s just those small things you just remember to take your, whatever like your glasses or your mobile phone, and also the bag and the bottle.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, exactly. It’s more to do with, I was gonna say with Gewöhnlichkeit but what is in English?
Lena Fließbach: Gewohnheit (habit).
Michael Dooney: Yeah, with um, with your, what you’re used to doing.
Lena Fließbach: Okay. Now, I only can think of the Spanish word — costumbre.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, with your daily routines.
Lena Fließbach: Yeah.
Michael Dooney: And things that you’re doing. Because I think I remember for me once, there was one point when I was cooking once and I’d made a soup — and this is before we were vegan, I think maybe we were vegetarian and I was part time vegetarian — like, I’d made a mushroom soup, before I put the milk in, I thought, “Oh, it’s vegan now!” but in my mind, it wasn’t finished until I added milk to it. And then once you kind of get over that psychological barrier, you’re like well actually is it’s okay, like, you don’t need to add that to it.
Lena Fließbach: And I think once you start to live vegan… you know there are some people will think, okay, you can only eat salad or something, but it’s not like that, you can eat like loads of stuff! I think, yeah, that’s a really great living in Berlin because everywhere…
Michael Dooney: In Berlin it’s really good. Yeah.
Lena Fließbach: You can have such a great vegan food and yeah, it’s amazing. I love that. Actually, we also have an artwork in our exhibition which is related to this topic like veganism. Bianca Kennedy & The Swan Collective they did this virtual reality piece, they created like a future scenario where bugs are the food for us. You know, like loads of bugs, and in this virtual reality experience, you are a bug yourself.
Michael Dooney: Oh, really?
Lena Fließbach: You look through the eyes of the bug, and you move, and you, you get swallowed by a human being and… yeah and then the bugs were asking, — okay, but why can not a whale, you know, like such a big animal cannot be a food and why us? You know, like millions of us? — and they started kind of fights and things and you can see that in our show.
Michael Dooney: How did you, sorry, I guess getting back to the art — now we’re talking about, yeah, global problems — but how did you select the artists? Was it ones within your existing network? Or you knew, we’re going to look for people looking at specific topics or themes? Because you already mentioned someone’s coming from Indonesia there’s somebody from Cape Town, South Africa. Did you intentionally want people from different cultural backgrounds in different parts of the world when you were curating the show?
Lena Fließbach: Yes. In this case, yes, because it totally makes sense. it’s a global topic. Okay, we started with some artists we already knew, mainly from Berlin. We had some studio visits and talked to some artists about what works could fit in the topic or what, what would they like to develop for the shows. Some artists are also developing some site specific works, and then we did a lot of research also. For example the South African artist, he is a photographer and he’s very young. I was actually in Cape Town a few years ago and went to the graduate exhibition of the art school there in Cape Town, and saw the work, and I remembered it, and I thought, okay, maybe it would be great to have a very, very young artist from South Africa in the show.
Michael Dooney: But I guess when you saw his work, you didn’t know yet where you wanted to put it.
Lena Fließbach: No.
Michael Dooney: I think just as a side note, it’s probably also good for artists to realise that when a curator or a gallery, gallerist sees their work, and it’s like — I need to find the right place for this — because I’d had the experience with people from portfolio reviews that I’d seen, or I’d seen a really great project, it’s like — I want to show this, but I don’t know yet where I can show it.
Lena Fließbach: Definately.
Michael Dooney: Then it’s like two or three years later, and then you kind of write an email or phone them and go, — Oh, guess what, I’ve got the perfect position to show this work.
Lena Fließbach: Definitely.
Michael Dooney: So that was the case with the young artists from South Africa?
Lena Fließbach: Exactly, and then some other artists also. For example the artists from Indonesia, actually, Tita Salina had a work at the Hamburger Bahnhof show I was involved with and I just spoke to her and it really fits in our concepts, you know, coincidentally a little bit also and it is a video work. And you know, they are from Indonesia and actually those are the ones who have a big sculpture also. So we decided only to show the video work, and for us it’s actually only possible to show the video because otherwise we would have made a transport and that’s what we want to avoid.
Michael Dooney: It would have also been quite expensive I imagine, if you’re shipping a sculpture from Indonesia?
Lena Fließbach: Of course, I mean it’s quite expensive. That’s a discussion we had a lot of times in the past month with artists who say, — Okay, yeah, I’m actually avoiding waste because of the precarious life — you know, I mean, it’s like that also, and but of course, some artists, also very conscious, but sometimes you also avoid material or transports because you cannot afford it.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s just not an option.
Lena Fließbach: Yeah, but for example Raul Walch, you know, he is an artist who works mainly with textiles. One of the reasons he works with textiles is because even a huge sculpture or installation, he just can put like in a small box and take it with him in the train. He has worked in Almería in Spain. There’s like huge plantage out of plastic where the vegetables grow, also for Germany, and it’s huge. It’s a country out of plastic, kind of, he collected a lot of material like different plastics and nets and he also spent time there and he said it’s everywhere. It’s like flying around you, like hanging in the bushes, flying into the sea, you know, and he will… or he’s building a mobile now for one of the 14 meter high terraces in the museum, we’re looking forward to it.
Michael Dooney: So how much have you got to do still?
Lena Fließbach: So let me think yeah, we are working on the catalog. All the money we get will… ich weiß grade nicht wie ich, dass auf Englisch sagen soll… All the money we receive for the catalogue will go into the project of Andreas Greiner who will calculate the carbon footprint of the show and who will plant trees. This is a lot of work because we have to write lots of texts and work with the graphic designers on the catalogue; and the catalogue will be published shortly after the opening, because we really want to have installation shots in the catalogue. So this is one thing, then we still have to organise the program. I mean, they asked… some events are set, but some still are not set, and I think then the next step is also the transport and setting up the exhibition. And I’m really looking forward to it, I love setting up exhibitions! So great when you have worked like for years or like months on a project and then finally you can see the end result. I’m really looking forward to it but also for the site specific works.
Michael Dooney: I guess till now they’ve not been realized. How many of those are there?
Lena Fließbach: In total?
Michael Dooney: Yeah.
Lena Fließbach: Okay. We have 21 artists but there are three duos, so 18 positions. Most of the artists at least have two, three, or four works. So I think it’s 900 square meters. It’s huge. It’s on… the exhibition will be on two floors. One space will be a black box with three video works. But we don’t have that much time actually only a few days to set up everything. So we have to be really organized, but I will be in Leipzig the whole time.
Michael Dooney: Yeah, and you’ll have a team I guess building and everything as well?
Lena Fließbach: Definitely, yeah. Nearly all the artists will be there for setting up the exhibition.
Michael Dooney: How long does the show go for?
Lena Fließbach: Three months, until the 21st of June.
Michael Dooney: Cool. All right. Thanks a lot Lena. This is really nice to chat and to learn more about what you’re doing.
Lena Fließbach: Thank you, Thank you.
Michael Dooney: Hopefully we’ll still have an opportunity to see ZERO WASTE in the not too distant future. I’d recommend following the Instagram feed and the hashtag #mdbkzerowaste for updates. It’s possible that the museum will be organising a live chat online with Lena, Hannah and potentially one or more of the participating artists. But as nothing is confirmed, you’ll have to follow the social media to find out when this will ultimately take place.
*** New Exhibition Dates: 25 June until 08 November 2020 ***
Obviously, it’s a difficult and complicated time for everyone right now. However, the exhibition team are doing what they can under the circumstances to bring the art and important message to the audiences around the world. If nothing else, I really hope this episode has provided some temporary relief from what’s going on right now. Who knows what the situation will be like in a few weeks or even tomorrow. I just hope everyone’s taking the necessary precautions to flatten the curve that you look out for one another. And above all, staying inside. This is actually Episode 20 of Subtext & Discourse. So thanks, everyone who’s participated so far, and of course, everyone who’s joined us along the way. Until next time, my name is Michael Dooney. Stay healthy and take care.
