- 7 months ago
John and Chino discuss the damaging legacy of faith-healing movements by exploring their personal experiences and theological critiques of leaders like Hobart Freeman and William Branham. They recount bizarre, often tragic, stories of broken bones, cast removals, and faith-based neglect—offering a window into the consequences of extreme teachings on healing, medicine, and divine promises. Chino shares accounts from Freeman satellite congregations where even children were pressured to hide injuries, revealing the deep psychological programming present in these movements. John contrasts these experiences with theological insights that expose how Bible verses like Psalm 34:20 were taken far out of context and weaponized to manipulate followers into rejecting medical care.
Throughout their discussion, they expose the cult-like tendencies of ministers who claimed authority by distorting scripture—relying on “biblical hopscotch” and charismatic influence while dodging responsibility for the harm caused. Their dialogue is both deeply personal and sharply analytical, as they dissect not only the faulty hermeneutics of these preachers but also the cultural forces that allowed them to flourish. The episode culminates in a critique of how these doctrines spawned movements like Manifested Sons of God and Joel’s Army, where messianic delusions and miracle-chasing replaced sound doctrine and compassion. Their conversation ultimately urges listeners to return to biblical truth and discernment.
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
00:00 Introduction
10:34 Meet-and-Greet Announcement and Cult Trauma Recovery
13:34 Cultic Beliefs About Broken Bones and Divine Healing
20:00 Misuse of Psalm 34:20 and Retroactive Theology
27:10 Faulty Logic Behind Faith-Based Miracles and Anointed Objects
36:34 Manifested Sons of God and “Greater Works” Heresies
40:06 Real-Life Stories of Injury, Shame, and Ministerial Cowardice
52:02 Final Thoughts on Scripture Abuse and Doctrinal Hierarchy
______________________
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Throughout their discussion, they expose the cult-like tendencies of ministers who claimed authority by distorting scripture—relying on “biblical hopscotch” and charismatic influence while dodging responsibility for the harm caused. Their dialogue is both deeply personal and sharply analytical, as they dissect not only the faulty hermeneutics of these preachers but also the cultural forces that allowed them to flourish. The episode culminates in a critique of how these doctrines spawned movements like Manifested Sons of God and Joel’s Army, where messianic delusions and miracle-chasing replaced sound doctrine and compassion. Their conversation ultimately urges listeners to return to biblical truth and discernment.
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
00:00 Introduction
10:34 Meet-and-Greet Announcement and Cult Trauma Recovery
13:34 Cultic Beliefs About Broken Bones and Divine Healing
20:00 Misuse of Psalm 34:20 and Retroactive Theology
27:10 Faulty Logic Behind Faith-Based Miracles and Anointed Objects
36:34 Manifested Sons of God and “Greater Works” Heresies
40:06 Real-Life Stories of Injury, Shame, and Ministerial Cowardice
52:02 Final Thoughts on Scripture Abuse and Doctrinal Hierarchy
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham historical research at william-branham.org. And with me, I have my co host minister and friend channel Ross pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by channel D Ross YouTube channel channel. It's good to be back and to talk all things Hobart Freeman. We've had a little bit of a
00:58Had a little bit of a hiatus moving things around because you've been on vacation and I've seen some incredible pictures of the fish
01:06So thankfully you're back and sounds like you've had a pretty good fishing trip. Yeah, John
01:11We're not on our normal recording day, but I guess only we know that but I had gone down to Kentucky Lake
01:18It's kind of an annual middle of May trip that we go down there. I've done it
01:22I think I started in the year 2000 going down there. It's not a I'm not guiding
01:27I'm I'm with friends and family whenever I go
01:30But we had a lot of fun caught a lot of a lot of the fish
01:34We were targeting and we also caught some bonus species
01:37And you know, it was just really really fun to be down there and normally we're down there to catch fish to eat
01:45I don't always do that on trips
01:48It depends on the specie that we're targeting but these were definitely fish you wanna catch and clean and take home and eat
01:55well, I have a boat that I
01:58keep on the Ohio River and
02:01It's a long crazy
02:03sad story
02:04but I a
02:05person working with the cult just totally destroyed my boat one year and I've had to go through from the
02:12Interior to the exterior to the motors and everything fixing it back up after the sabotage
02:16but I have my boat up and running and
02:20You're showing me pictures, which I'll put them on the screen here of the fish you caught
02:25but I I was raised in this religion where we were taught it was almost like a
02:32Davy Crockett style
02:35Mentality man you you you have to live off the land
02:38You can only eat what you you can only kill what you eat. That was the philosophy
02:44And it stems from Branham's
02:47highly fictional life story accounts where he's talking about hunting and trapping and fishing to
02:54Support his widowed mother while he's not got a sixth grade
02:59Education because he had to be out helping them and none of its real kill a bear with his bare hands
03:07You know if he could have pulled the story off. I think he would have tried to but hey, he preached his father's funeral
03:13So he there's no way none of the story is real the absolutely not one aspect of it
03:19But in the back of my mind, I've got that that mentality
03:23You only kill what you eat and this Ohio River it for anybody who knows it's just so highly polluted
03:30You would never eat something out of it, or you might grow an extra ear
03:34that's
03:36That's just how weird it is. But I years later I came across and I've got a video
03:42Somebody sent me a William Branham on one of his hunting excursions and
03:47While I was raised with this you must only kill what you eat mentality
03:53There it's showing him walking around
03:56With all of his kills on the safari and he's got he's smiling grinning ear-to-ear
04:02and he's pretending he's got a rifle in his hands and bang bang bang and
04:06There are just rows and rows of zebra skins and bulls and things that he's never gonna eat a zebra
04:13I'm sure you he's not gonna eat a zebra
04:16But while he's out having this lifestyle where he's doing everything that we were trained not to I
04:23Was raised where I I even have a hard time fishing because of it
04:28So the the difference between the cult leader and what they the life that they actually live versus the rules they enforce
04:34It's just a night and day difference and it's interesting how dr. Freeman ended up with a no hunting at all
04:41Theology, which wasn't like Branham's at all. And I think that probably more
04:47Traceable to the fact that he was not an outdoorsman
04:50I mean he studied remember 14 to 16 hours a day
04:53So he didn't have time to go hunting but that was where he ended up no hunting at all because
05:00He said that God
05:02Does not want
05:04Overcomers at least harming creation and yet still surely you go and buy eggs at the store
05:11And those probably don't come from free-range birds and you probably buy bacon at the store
05:17I mean, it's just not a very viable theology to end up with but that's what he ended up with
05:23Yeah, it's so weird man that what what I've learned is that if a minister
05:29Wants to do something and can't they preach really hard against it so nobody else can have fun either, right?
05:35It's when you're in these cults
05:37That's the way the mentality is but it just goes to show they have strayed so far from
05:43Biblical teaching that it edges to personality and that's why it's called a cult of personality
05:49they literally wrapped their theology around their person and the
05:54The fact that I have a conversation
05:57About what what I can and can't haunt or what I can can't fish because of a church setting it says a lot
06:06That we are doing all of these ridiculous podcasts says a lot
06:11It's almost like these ministers didn't know the Bible. There's so much there to teach
06:16I teach a weekly study every every week on the book of Revelation
06:21We started February a year ago and we're in chapter 6
06:26So it's not like the Bible doesn't have things to talk about
06:31It has so much to talk about and in and we end up having to talk about what the cults talked about
06:36Which wasn't what the Bible talked about?
06:39Well, if I could John here at the beginning before we get into our podcast today
06:44I did want to let everyone know that we do have a date set up for a potential meeting greet
06:51share and swap stories
06:54Commiserate with one another
06:58Tongue lash each other for being so foolish and so stupid
07:02Whatever it amounts to we'll have fun together, but it's the first weekend in August of this year, which is
07:11The first second and third a Friday Saturday and Sunday at the Wyndham Hotel in
07:17Warsaw, Indiana
07:19So I tried to pick a place that positions this get-together where?
07:25The bulk of the people were and maybe still are a lot of people aren't there people have spread out
07:32But I'm I still think that's probably
07:35The the hub of the wheel is Hobart like to say for everything going on was in northern, Indiana
07:40And so it's just gonna be for those that travel such as myself. I'll have to come in on a Friday
07:47I'll leave on a Sunday
07:49but we have a conference room reserved for that Saturday and
07:54We'll just get together and a Q&A time someone had asked hey, are you gonna preach or teach on this?
08:02And I said, that's the last thing I'm gonna do
08:04Nobody's coming to hear anybody teach or preach on anything and she said but we have questions. I said, oh, yeah questions for sure
08:11I mean, it'll just be open to whomever
08:15And I've even people have asked me well now I know someone that they don't like you too much
08:22But they're real curious. I said, well, they're welcome. I don't care. I like them whether they like me or not. I like them. So
08:30Yeah, they're welcome to come and something else John Collins
08:34I have been asked by many of these people is Johnny Mac coming along
08:40Are you gonna bring him is he coming?
08:42And
08:43So this is to them and to you between the two of us
08:48I have told people that you've got a really busy busy
08:52Professional life. You've got a busy
08:55Personal schedule as well. So I can't promise to anyone
09:01that you will come but I know you're wanted and people are asking and
09:07So I just want to make sure you know that I'm kind of like
09:11I'm kind of like George Harrison to your Paul McCartney and they really want you there
09:18They don't care too much about me. So the invitation is there to come and join us
09:25Everyone so those of you that can please let John or I know that you're coming just so we have some idea
09:32the number of people that will be there so that we can prepare and
09:37It doesn't have to be just people affected by Hobart Freeman or Faith Assembly, you know
09:44Whomever is kind of everybody's traveling in the same mentality of this cult of personality and that they have been freed from
09:52So we would love to see everyone first weekend in August Wyndham Hotel in Warsaw, Indiana
09:59Well to your analogy, I'm more like the screaming Yoko Ono that nobody wants to hear. That's
10:05That's more me, but yeah, we I do have a busy schedule and we have some health complications that
10:13I'm not sure that I can make and and beyond that I have attracted a whole lot of enemies and I would hate to say
10:20That I'm coming and attract those enemy enemies to the place
10:23So it's probably better that I keep some distance, but we'll we'll talk about it after the podcast and see where it heads
10:31But anyway, we have an exciting episode to get into today talking about
10:37Broken bones and such when when you're in these divine healing cults that have gone
10:42beyond their
10:44Whatever was the core theology that made the cult and then they head towards destructiveness
10:50It's so weird because it's like a train without rails. You don't know where it's headed. It can go any direction and
10:56In Hobart Freeman's case. It just went to the real absurd
11:00It's it went beyond levels of normal
11:05Even normal humanity and just went into the absurd
11:08And so when people outside of this cult are listening this podcast or watching what's happening
11:13They look at it and they scratch their heads thinking how could anybody?
11:17Submit themselves to that and you have to understand that once you're in that cult mentality. You're in the group think it's not a
11:24instant change so when Hobart Freeman was creating the cult and
11:29He's saying come join me and you won't need your medicine after we get into our
11:35revelation or whatever it was that he said if he had have just
11:38Said from the very get-go and when you join us
11:41We're not gonna let you go to the doctor when you have a broken bone not a single person would join it
11:47But because it's so gradual over time in a group think setting
11:51Everybody just casually starts to believe the same thing
11:55And so some of the responsibility for that actually falls to the people as well
12:01Even though they're being manipulated. It's truly programming. I mean it is definitely programming it happens
12:07And when you look at dr. Freeman's perspective on healing and faith
12:12It really is honestly the inevitable place that you end up
12:17Back early Hobart was just excited to hear that healing was in the atonement in his opinion
12:24And he needed healing
12:26but I think early on healing would be for
12:30you know
12:31simple things like a headache and
12:34or
12:36really important things like cancer
12:39But they were they were things that they thought you can actually
12:43Pray for God to heal you or the person before you and God will answer your prayer
12:50They'll say that it says in James 5 call for the elders of church and they'll anoint with oil and pray the prayer of faith
12:57And you will be healed
12:59But as we saw in our last
13:02Discussion we got into the subject of eye care and eyeglasses where that's not even a sickness or a disease or an illness
13:10But it is something that is not perfection
13:13And that's what they were all after
13:16Hobart really felt and taught that you could be
13:21perfect in this life to the point that
13:25You wouldn't even have to die and he didn't even bring into the discussion
13:30If you were alive at the time of the Rapture, he would just argue
13:34There's no physical reason for human beings to die since our body and our cells and our skin are constantly
13:42Regenerating themselves that if you will live close enough to the Lord and have enough faith in him
13:49Then he will literally renew your youth like the Eagles to the point that there's really no
13:57Aging involved and of course when people hear that they say that I mean literally sounds like something out of science fiction
14:05And it is but it made perfect sense to him
14:09Why should my eyesight grow dim why should my skin have wrinkles in it?
14:15Why should I lose some of my hair all of that? Is that a sign of?
14:21decay
14:23Degeneration
14:24Demise death, you know all these words
14:27We don't like to hear but it's exactly where the human body is hit headed from birth to death
14:33So it's the inevitable place for dr. Freeman to end up
14:38By not just praying for
14:41What you would recognize to be a disease or an illness, but any type of physical
14:49Issue in your body at all
14:52That is covered by God's Word. I mean he was certain on that
14:57He promised people that the verse they would use for this is Psalm 34 and verse 20
15:05He keepeth all his bones
15:08Not one of them is broken. He keepeth all his bones. Not one of them are broken and
15:16people would stand on that but then the problem was
15:21Everybody is using that verse
15:25They're not using it
15:27Proactively, they're not claiming that verse until after
15:32The child has already fallen off the roller skates or
15:38the novice skier on the slope has veered off the trail and
15:43Smacked into a tree and broken their arm or their shoulder. They fallen off their bike or a car
15:49wreck or something
15:51then they're saying oh, I'm claiming Psalm 34 20 and
15:55When I heard things like that, I'm like, wait a minute didn't it say he keepeth all of his bones
16:02Obviously the Lord didn't keep your bone because it's broken now
16:05And then the rest of the verse said not one of them is broken
16:09But now you're using a verse that says he'll keep all of them and none of them are broken
16:15Now you're using that verse
16:18Retroactively and I'm saying wait, wait, wait, that's not the way this works, you know
16:24That's not the way you play this game your time for using that verse is all over that's in the past
16:30You already have a broken bone. Now. You need to find a verse that says if you have a broken bone
16:36Then you don't need to go and have it set you simply need to pray to the Lord
16:42Pray to the Lord
16:43It's just this one verse that happens to mention broken bones and they became so fixated on it
16:49but that's the problem that I have talked about so often in these podcasts Sean is
16:54Hobart was just a master at biblical hopscotch
16:58Just connect the dots
17:00You know, it's just a if you can find a verse that uses the word then boom
17:06Claim that verse and and that verse will work for you
17:11I'm still laughing at biblical hopscotch. That's I'm going to use that going forward, you know
17:17I've wondered where this came from because it's not just Hobart. It's not just Branham that's doing this
17:22You can find it widespread like a plague in many Pentecostal churches even still today
17:29Even though a lot of them have reformed
17:32they'll take verses that are just totally out of the context and if they can preach a sermon and wedge of
17:39Pick some random verse and then wedge it in their sermon and say here that sounds really good with what I'm saying. They'll do it and
17:47You know, it really comes down to a lot of the ministers. I think you know having been a public speaker and
17:55Sometimes I have been in situations where I've had to they call it shooting from the hip while you're talking
18:00sometimes I wonder if they're not doing that, but I
18:04I
18:05actually went into a deep study to figure out why why is it widespread because
18:10ministers who prepare for their sermons were also doing it and I go back into
18:15studying British Israel ism and learning that they were trying to make
18:21Like the dual atonement that Hobart taught the British Israel doctrine tried to create a dual
18:27Interpretation of all of the passages of the Old Testament
18:31So it had this meaning way back then
18:33But I can take this one verse and take it out of context and apply it to today
18:38the biggest example of this would William Branham said that
18:42Nahum the great he how did he were the great eagle?
18:46Nahum as he was looking and peering through the curtains of time
18:51He saw the outer drive in Chicago and saw the the cars running to and fro
18:56Has absolutely nothing to do with Nahum's vision, but that's what they were doing
19:01They were saying trying to say through British Israel doctrine that the Old Testament prophets prophesied for Israel, but now today
19:09We're live. How did they they say it was like a shadow of what was to come?
19:13So the greater fulfillment than actually Nineveh. Well, it's outer drive in Chicago
19:20But to the point you're talking about what was it Psalms 34?
19:25I think you said
19:27one of the things that also hit me is
19:31Minister like Hobart he studied
19:34Outside of the cult he knew a lot of the thing a lot of doctrinal things about the Bible and he threw it out the window
19:41Which is just odd to me, but things like the the bones passage
19:45I can't remember what book it is
19:47You probably know but there's a New Testament passage where it's talking about the application of that to Jesus
19:55and
19:56Jesus's bones was not broken and
19:59Here I am veering off into my theological stance, which I try to avoid but
20:06Jesus in that
20:08Interpretation was representing the Passover lamb and the Passover lamb had to be without blemish which meant without broken bones
20:16And there are passages that use that and it is a cultural phrase
20:21It would be like I don't know I use I use the term shot from the hip
20:26Which is referring back to the Old West when they would shoot without lifting their gun
20:31Well, that's a cultural reference and it it would be like a minister taking that phrase and saying shooting from the hip fits with
20:38My sermon, so I'm gonna use it but in the old language. They're actually using cultural phrases and
20:46And
20:47Further to the point. What was it Ezekiel in the Valley of Dry Bones?
20:52Some of the passages where it's talking about broken bones
20:55It has metaphors and metaphorical uses the Valley of Dry Bones was
21:00Representing each bone was representing the bringing together of the broken Israel
21:05So whenever you get into understanding theology, you understand that what he did can't it can't work with Christian theology
21:13It's polar opposite and the irony is that he studied theology
21:17So he knew that he was preaching polar opposite from the Bible
21:21I know it's but I think that was part of the allure of it for the people that followed him including myself
21:28And I've never hesitated to include myself in this
21:32Company of idiots back when I was younger because he was highly trained and a Polish speaker and knew a lot of theological stuff
21:41So again
21:43The mentality of the impressionable person is how can I come against that?
21:48I mean, I only have my education. He's got a doctor's degree in this
21:54But I hope through these podcasts, you know, we let everyone know that you we all
22:00We stand on our own feet if a minister says something crazy. You just need to say that I'm sorry, dude
22:06But that's crazy what you just said there and all these examples come to my mind
22:11I could give some from Hobart the last verse in the little prophecy of Ovid I it only has 21 verses in it
22:19The very last verse in that and I won't do a sermon here for it for everybody
22:23But it is talking about the restoration of Israel in a millennial context
22:28But it mentions that deliverers will come upon Mount Zion to judge the Mount of Esau and the kingdom shall be the Lord
22:34So it's basically a quotation of that verse, but it uses that word deliverer
22:40Hobart was huge on in time deliverance ministry. We haven't talked about that part of his ministry
22:47We'll do that at some point. Oh
22:50My word was dr. Freeman off
22:54Biblical basis for all of his views about deliverance. But anyway when he
22:58Would reference when he would go to Obadiah he would say that verse
23:04Even has reference to these current in time deliverance ministries in the charismatic
23:10Pentecostal world. No, it does not it has no reference to that at all
23:16that's totally out of its context you just with scissors and paste cut it out and
23:23Pasted it in to your sermon somewhere
23:26But that's the way that's the bad hermeneutics we talked about before John
23:31That is the way Hobart chose to interpret Scripture
23:35He was learning it from Branham from Gordon Lindsay from everybody that came before him
23:40Just find a verse that sings the tune you want it to sing and just rip it out of his context
23:47Who cares what his context is it it, you know, this is the Holy Spirit speaking to me
23:52An example that comes to my mind from someone else
23:56Malcolm Webber
23:58Someone has told me this story about Malcolm Webber Malcolm and
24:02Look, I'm not criticizing Malcolm at all. I in my youthfulness
24:08Things just as stupid as what I'm getting ready to say that Malcolm did and I've given examples from myself
24:14But but Malcolm who came from Australia came to join Faith Assembly
24:19I think right before Hobart died like mmm too late, you know now he's dead, but he stayed believe the message totally
24:26100% believe the message before he came from Australia. He was down there teaching it in Australia
24:32and so what Malcolm did is
24:36he wasn't going to put any new tires on his car and
24:41That was on the basis of the children of Israel when they were wandering in the wilderness
24:47Their shoes never wore out over that 38-year period
24:52So there again
24:54Because of the kind of teaching that Hobart was giving
24:58They got it from Hobart Malcolm would have never come up with that on his own
25:02No, no sane person would and Malcolm's the same human being
25:06Because Hobart was stressing
25:09Miracles everywhere, you know, nothing don't plan anything. Don't budget. It's just claim everything
25:17Everything's a miracle
25:18Well, if that's true
25:21Then why would you change tires on your car?
25:24Why not just lay hands on those?
25:27Firestone tires and say in the name of Jesus tread be still
25:32You just don't want it to disappear at all. And then they would say well
25:37Why can't I do that because the children of Israel their shoes never wore out and the response is obvious
25:44That was a unique miracle for those people. And if you don't think it was go ahead and try it
25:50I'm Garrett. I guarantee you you'll buy a new pair of shoes and you'll put a new set of tires on your car
25:57Now see I'm of the opinion because I've had enough of them to know that if you have a Firestone brand tire
26:03You really do need to live on some kind of faith because they just do not last but that's another story for another day
26:11But I get what you mean and what's funny is that the faith healing doctrines?
26:18Because it's anti-biblical because what they're teaching is in some cases
26:23extra-biblical and then some cases it goes far beyond to anti-biblical they have actually taken it outside of the realm of
26:29faith as it relates to humans and Christianity into sorcery where you try to change objects and
26:38I
26:40May or may not have done this as a child prayed over things that weren't working toys that broke
26:47Okay, I did it as an adult I can remember clearly praying for my grandfather's radio in his Oldsmobile and
26:55I kid you not it magically started working
26:58I can't explain how or why other than he probably hit a bump and the thing probably shook but
27:04It did work and we praised the Lord that my my prayer of faith had fixed the radio
27:09but
27:11You know when you take a step back after you understand, what is Christianity and understand the differences
27:17That was edging towards sorcery and I should feel really guilty that I did such a thing because that's not that's not what Christianity is
27:25About but you're right. It is widespread. It wasn't just Freeman. It wasn't just Branham
27:30There was something about all of these guys style of teaching
27:34that
27:36tended toward
27:38the people believing that they weren't responsible for things in their own life that
27:44You really were supposed to pray to God for everything and that God would take care of everything and
27:53You know again, I think I've said before in these podcasts that when we read the Bible
27:57It's written over several thousand year period and it looks like a miracle happened every day
28:03But it's written over several thousand years times
28:07365 days in a year
28:09You know miracles didn't just happen every day and some of them were very special miracles
28:14we looked at Paul those anointed claws that went from Paul's body and then all these Pentecostals think that
28:21They can bring you a handkerchief and the old minister can pray on the thing and you carry it away and someone will get healed
28:28Maybe they do maybe they don't
28:31My point is what the text says is that God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul
28:36So that tells me something just when I read that text
28:40I mean a normal person would if you read the text and you're honest and you're not looking for something
28:46You know for yourself, like what can I get out of this? That's not the way we're supposed to read the Bible
28:52We're supposed to read the Bible in this way. What is it telling me? What's it telling me?
28:57Not what can I get out of it?
28:59What is telling me is that Paul has some special things God did and like by exclusion
29:06I'm not Paul and
29:08That may not happen with me and I probably shouldn't expect for that to happen to me or then it wasn't that God did
29:15Special miracles by Paul's hands. It would just be this is a common miracle that any Christian can perform
29:23Just take a handkerchief from yourself from your body
29:26Go lay it on a sick person or a demon-possessed person and watch the results happen. Maybe it can happen
29:32Maybe it has happened on occasion because God is wonderful and almighty and gracious and kind and wants to see the sick
29:40You know and wants to see the demon-possessed delivered
29:44But to make claims on God saying this is the way to do it and as long as I can get an anointed cloth
29:50On to someone that's what they call them an anointed cloth as long as I can get this on them
29:56Then they're going to be set free
29:58that might be
30:00presumptuous on our part
30:02I think John in the last interview you did with a Faith Assembly
30:07satellite
30:09Survivor
30:10That woman told a story when she was 10 or 12 years old of a of a fractured thumb
30:18that she had in a cast and it was just a
30:23Wonderful story how the sister shared it
30:25She knew at that young age
30:28Because she was in a Faith Assembly satellite group
30:31If you come to church with glasses on or a cast or a cane or anything
30:37You're not an overcomer. You're somehow less than us and she felt that at the age of 10 or 12
30:46So she said I have to go in the bathroom and soak this
30:51cast off of my fractured thumb
30:54So that I can blend in with the rest of the overcomers here in my group
31:00again, that is
31:03perfect proof of
31:04What Freeman's message was doing whether Freeman ever stood in the pulpit and said thou shalt not wear a cast
31:11He didn't have to do that his teachings told even 10 and 12 year olds
31:17that if you have any kind of
31:20Mechanical or physical aid a walker or wheelchair
31:24You're not trusting God
31:26Somebody told me of a of a person at Faith Assembly that they rolled around in a wheelchair
31:32Everywhere until they got to church then they picked that human being up out of their car
31:37Brought him in and sat him down in a chair
31:40Because they didn't want them to be seen in a wheelchair now at home a wheelchair is okay
31:45But at church a wheelchair is not okay
31:48Because that's a sign of a lack of faith in God
31:52So that's the extreme to which dr. Freeman went and as I said earlier, it's just the inevitable place
32:00You're gonna end up if you've got an unscriptural view of faith
32:04If you've got an unscriptural view of healing Hobart never taught a detailed, you know
32:12seminary level
32:13Where you cover every passage in the original language of what faith is what healing is
32:20Because had you had he done that he wouldn't have ended up where he ended up because had he done that
32:26He would have gone to where Paul said Timothy
32:31Drink a little wine for your stomach's sake and for your often infirmities
32:37That's a no-no verse at Faith Assembly
32:39Not only is it no-no in the sense that Wow
32:43Timothy is sick and Paul's not encouraging him to believe for his healing. Not only is it a no-no in that sense
32:49It's a no-no in the sense of did you hear that?
32:53negative confession Paul just made
32:56Timothy you are often sick and you have stomach issues. You could not let anything like that come out of your mouth and
33:04so
33:05Where I got into trouble John years ago, I mean, this is not new for me to say these things about dr
33:13Freeman I said it 40 years ago as a matter of fact somebody who is following who is listening to one of my series from
33:2040 years ago
33:23Said hey, you know just so you know, I just listened to
33:28It was Christian ethics
33:30Tape number 100 just to prove to people and Christian ethics tape 101. Those were taught February the 9th of
33:391986 and they said hey, you're giving Hobart Freeman a hard time on these messages right here. It was 40 years ago
33:47Where I got into trouble is I would raise a simple question
33:51Now Paul said to drink wine because you're often sick Hobart says you can't do that. Okay
33:57Who am I gonna believe
33:59Gonna follow am I gonna follow the Word of God or the Word of a man and whenever I would just bring that up
34:06I mean, I just bring it up innocently. I try to talk to dr. Freeman or one of those ministers and say
34:12Shouldn't we follow this verse it shouldn't it be okay for this verse to be in our Bible, you know
34:17Shouldn't that be okay and even to practice this first?
34:20I would get into all kinds of trouble like Chino. You're just a logical intellectual
34:25I said no, I'm not really very smart at all, but I can read plain English and
34:31Plain English disagrees with what Hobart's teaching. So should we take the Bible or should we take faith is simply what should we do?
34:40Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism?
34:47transition through the latter rain
34:49Charismatic and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation
34:53You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website
34:58William dash Branham org on the books page of the website
35:02You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley
35:07Stephen Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book
35:15You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements
35:21if you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the
35:26Contribute button at the top and as always be sure to LIKE and subscribe
35:30To the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Branham historical research
35:37We want to thank you for your support
35:39You know, one of the biggest heresies that came out of all of this is the Manifested Sons of God
35:45Which we've talked about, you know Hobart had his different spin on it and the ministries that grew from this they have their different
35:53Loaded language because they realized the Manifested Sons of God became widely known as a heresy
35:59So they changed the names and the terms of it
36:02sometimes it's overcomers or there's different armies that they use different terms that they use but
36:08This idea of Joel's army it developed in such a way that
36:13The ministers who were teaching it started focusing very heavily on the passages
36:20Where it's talking about the miracles that Jesus did
36:24Because they always go back to that one passage greater works than this. Shall you do you're familiar with the passage?
36:311412. Yeah. Yes. So they always go back to that and they say when these Manifested Sons of God rise up
36:38They'll do greater works and then the heresy spread throughout latter rain
36:43ministers started claiming that I have seen more miracles in my ministry than Jesus ever had on his life and
36:51You know Branham said that I think I remember Hobart saying that but I could be wrong
36:56but these ministers started doing this and then what they started doing is
37:00Everywhere where there was a miracle there's verbiage in the in the Bible that they can use that they can
37:07Kind of play a mind game with the people they'll use that phrase but not point it to Jesus. They'll point it to themselves
37:15And in doing so the people start thinking about the phrase and associating it with the minister
37:20Over time it grows into such a way where the minister becomes Christ in their minds
37:27And so now you've got the biblical verses about the false Christ that will arise coming out of this kind of thing
37:33It got it got to the point where I can recall sitting in a we'd have these testimony sermons talking about
37:40how wonderful it was when William Branham was alive and the wonderful miracles that he did that was greater than Jesus and
37:48This one guy got up and he says and I was near the platform and I touched the hem of his garment
37:54And I was healed right there
37:57Think of the level of heresy that that gets towards whenever people are like this. They have actually compared
38:04Jesus to the minister to Jesus and you can read it's all throughout the comment feeds whenever somebody attacks
38:10They'll attack saying but you know
38:13the people rose up against Jesus to in his day because they've associated whatever is the minister Hobart Freeman or Branham or
38:21Paul Cain any of these guys they associate them with the Christ and so all of the passages rebuking those who oppose the Christ
38:28They'll use those passages against you and it's all part of the loaded language
38:32Schematic that these guys were following. I hope in the future we can and talk about Hobart's theology
38:39concerning overcomers and manifested sons
38:41I did not realize when I first started listening to Hobart and heard all of that
38:47I thought that was original with him and I just thought wow, we're gonna be the manifested sons of God
38:52You know, I didn't have a clue didn't have a clue that anybody had taught that before him and then as I realized they oh
38:59Yeah, he got that from these other people then you realize he got other things from other people and it's not that it's bad
39:06We all stand on other men's shoulders
39:08You just want to stand on the right man's shoulders and not the wrong man
39:12None of us have can claim any original stuff if you do you're probably lying, you know
39:17You've picked up bits and pieces from all kinds of people and that's fine. You just want to pick up the right stuff from other people
39:26So
39:28You know, I we're still talking about broken bones and they're just been I think of a story of people
39:34I know very very well
39:35I know the whole family have known him for 30 years and their son was in an airplane crash and I don't mean a
39:41Commercial airline, I mean one of these things with wings little small things that you fly around it. It's a side of a mountain and
39:49he was a part of a
39:51Big Faith Assembly satellite probably the biggest longest lasting Faith Assembly satellite group out there
39:58not the mother church itself and
40:04Obviously ended up, you know with multiple broken bones and so again Psalm
40:103420 you can't use that retroactively like like people try to do and and the young man is married
40:17I think with a family today and I'm sure a good Christian man
40:20But his body is if you look at him, you can tell it's not the same
40:25So this business of claiming these things it simply hasn't worked and I don't know why people won't
40:33Correctly deal with that or handle that one other story
40:37I'll just maybe share a little bit without any of the names of the actual parties involved
40:42I'm really hoping this brother will at some point be interviewed by you John
40:47I know y'all have spoken privately and he can you know, give you the full version of everything
40:53But here's this here's a man who was a part of a satellite group won't say when or where but for a long time
41:00Bought into every jot and tittle of what had been taught not only by dr
41:07Freeman but by some of the satellite ministers and his flavor of choice was
41:13Was Tom Hamilton?
41:15Tom Hamilton was the was the preacher of the big group in Shelbyville, Kentucky just for years and years and years
41:23so the brother that I have referenced to had a
41:27Child who had some type of accident and I believe it was an arm
41:32Broke broke their arm. I mean a broken arm
41:37and
41:39He shared this story with me last fall I never forgot it because as
41:44I listened to him
41:46I thought I knew where he was going and I even interrupted him when he got to a certain point
41:50But he said, you know, my my child had a broken arm
41:55We're taught to claim everything by faith no doctors
41:58No medicine and if there's no doctors and it means no cast, you know
42:02it means you can't go have that properly and professionally set you either do it yourself or
42:10You just pray and say I'm claiming Psalm 34 20, you know retroactively. I'm claiming Psalm 34 20
42:18But you know, it's a pretty serious
42:21breakage of the bone
42:22So he happened to have Tom's phone number and so he picked up the phone and he called Tom
42:27And he said, you know after some small talk, you know, he got to the point of his call and he said look brother Tom
42:35I
42:37Got a big issue I'm dealing with here and
42:41As soon as he said that I said, let me guess
42:45Let me guess Tom's response and it's not just Tom's it would be dr. Freeman. We saw it with dr
42:51Freeman when he actually went before the judge and the judge said did you teach this? He said no, I didn't teach that
42:56I just said everybody trust God and you know work it out on your own. That's not what he said
43:01He said if you even have a television set in your home, God may kill one of your children
43:06That's what he said. And had he ever gone to actual trial they would have played those tapes and he would have been convicted
43:12So I said let me guess I bet Tom distanced himself from you didn't he
43:18Because what can he say Tom can either say that's right brother, you know, we preach total faith
43:24Don't you take him? Let's bring him over to my house. We'll pray for him right now. God's gonna set that bone supernaturally
43:31He's either gonna say that or he's gonna say no you need to go to the hospital and that's gonna contradict his message
43:38He's stuck either way. He can't say go to the hospital. That'll contradict his message
43:43He can't say bring him over to my house and I'll lay hands on him because he knows that won't work
43:48So I said my guess is he probably kind of distanced himself in that conversation, didn't he brother said, how did you know?
43:56I said well, he has no choice. That's exactly what all of them are gonna do in a case like that
44:01They're gonna say well, you know, I can't give you any advice brother, but just trust the Lord, you know
44:06But I can't tell you what to do and I told this same brother. I said, let's put it like this
44:12What if you're a married man brother, right? Yes, I'm married. What do you you have a really attractive secretary at work?
44:18I mean, she's really a hottie as they say that's your secretary and you are
44:26considering having affair with her and
44:29You go ask Tom or Hobart or anybody. Should I do it?
44:33They'll give you a definite answer. Absolutely. Don't do it brother
44:37Why because they know that's what the Bible teaches don't cheat on your wife
44:42So they would absolutely give you advice for that. Why is it when it comes to an area where I don't want to be responsible?
44:49I don't want to tell you to go to the doctor. I don't want to tell you to trust God
44:53I don't want to be responsible
44:55Hey big guy, you're responsible up in the pulpit when you were telling everybody God will work miracles
45:01Now when the rubber meets the road, you're not such a big guy anymore
45:04You know, I said, I just don't have I don't have a lot of respect for situations like that
45:10I don't you know, if it is a biblical message, it's a biblical message no matter what
45:17if if you know that the authorities are gonna cut your head off if
45:22You profess your faith in Jesus Christ
45:27Would would you recommend someone profess their faith I would absolutely
45:32Recommend that do not deny the Lord say he is my Lord and Savior and if you get beheaded you get beheaded and
45:40That's just all there is to it and you'll go out gloriously
45:44They might say that in a case like that, but I hope everyone can tell
45:49When it comes to one of these touch-and-go issues
45:53That minister is gonna backtrack. It's gonna be hands-off. That's why I'm doing this
45:58I don't I don't want to have anything to do with it. I'm not gonna tell you. Yes
46:02I'm not gonna tell you no, and I just don't think that's right John
46:05I just think you know if it's a biblical message and you're a big-time preacher then, you know
46:10Go for it brother and tell us what God's Word says, but it's just not the way that it happened
46:14You know people who are in these types of movements. They try to defend the leader by
46:19Humanizing them and saying he's just like you and me. He's our brother. They that's why they use the phrase brother
46:24I think so that they can bring them down and humble themselves
46:28Whenever they should be taking responsibility
46:31But like you said these guys
46:33They're levels above the members because they're trying to teach the doctrine and they're swaying the herd in one way or another
46:41it'd be like me if I were to walk across the bridge over into Louisville and see some guy who's down on his luck and
46:49Started telling him, you know, things would be so much simpler if you were to just jump off the bridge
46:54I didn't tell him to do it
46:56But if I were to coax him into doing it after he's down on his luck
47:00I'm responsible for doing that
47:02And if a judge were to corner me and say did you tell him to jump off the bridge? I could say no
47:07I didn't I was just saying that he would be better off if he did, you know
47:13They they use that kind of strategy. They try to they try to dodge
47:17Responsibility when in fact, they're actually responsible for every single thing that's happened
47:22every person who died under Hobart Freeman and you know
47:25You figure the the number of men had actually jumped from this bridge is not even a great
47:32significant number compared to the people who have died in these ministries these faith healing ministries where they're trying to coax people out of taking
47:39their medicine and
47:40Simply like the man who's at the bridge. I could say man. I can show you a better way
47:45Come come down here and let's go talk and I could bring him back into safety
47:50well
47:50these guys could have also brought the people who were suffering back into safety, but they pushed them just a little bit further and
47:57In the end it was only for money or power and sometimes sex these guys have an agenda that supports themselves
48:06rather than the person who they're trying to teach or preach to and I've never really been able to
48:12Process all that John even I have thought even with a
48:17Minister who has a let's say a strong view of faith and healing
48:23even if you had a strong view of faith and healing I
48:28Just think just teach your view of faith and healing but leave the doctors out
48:35Leave out telling people what they shouldn't do or can't do
48:40Let them make all those decisions on their own and I think early in Hobart's ministry
48:47He was much more inclined to do that
48:51he would just talk about what a privilege it is that we have a God who will heal us and
48:59That is an entirely different message
49:01You'd go ahead and preach that message and let people study the scriptures and figure it out and apply it on their own
49:08But Hobart went to meddling in people's lives
49:12He wasn't satisfied
49:14With what he saw to be the level of faith in
49:18the lives of his congregation so he would go interfering in their life and then tell them and sometimes he'd tell them by
49:27Example, he wouldn't say from the pulpit. You can't here's what he would do. He would he never says
49:32None of you are allowed in this church to wear glasses. That's Hobart was too slick for that
49:37He would never because he didn't want to be held accountable for what he would do is he would say?
49:42Yeah, I taught this message in Pensacola, Florida and this sister came up and said thank you brother Freeman for this strong message now
49:50I'm just hearing all this about faith and healing
49:54Should I continue to wear my glasses?
49:56He would tell the story and put it all on someone else and then Hobart would say
50:01well, that depends on whether your eyes are healed or not and
50:06He wants them to say. Oh, so if my eyes are healed by faith, then I don't need them
50:12And if I wear them, that means I don't believe they're healed
50:15He put all that responsibility back on the person people would come and ask him
50:20Should I continue to take my insulin now that I've claimed healing from diabetes and he would say
50:27It depends on whether you have diabetes or not if you have faith you don't have diabetes if you don't have faith you do
50:35so he and
50:37so
50:38Consequently as we just said he would not be liable or responsible for whatever is going to happen to the people and
50:48You know, it's just a sad story
50:51So this brother who went and asked Tom Hamilton, you know, what should I do?
50:56I'll let him tell the outcome of the story if he ever decides to and please forgive me brother for
51:03Stealing your thunder and telling your story
51:06But it's just such a classic example of these ministers
51:12you know holding to a belief kind of
51:17but as I shared with the illustration of cheating on your wife or denying Christ, they don't hold to
51:24Their healing view like they hold to those two views
51:28But whenever they're preaching it, it's like everything's equal
51:31they don't even realize there is a
51:34There are doctrines in the Bible that are more important than others and there are doctrines that are less important for some reason
51:41Minute those ministers were afraid to say that
51:44They just want to say all truth is of equal importance. Oh, come on. You can't really believe that
51:52You know, there is no way that's true
51:54there are some doctrines of Scripture that definitely take priority over other doctrines and
52:00They're big and strong on these definite doctrines and in their mind
52:07They're big and strong on all of them until the rubber meets the road
52:12And someone says, you know, I've got a child dying. They're gonna be dead by the end of the day
52:16Should I take him to the hospital or not?
52:19They're not gonna say don't and they're not gonna say dude they're gonna say well brother you've been here how many years how many years have
52:26You sat under this end time message of faith and you have to ask me that question. I
52:31See, I see a lot of cowardice in a lot of ministers and and to go back to our subject if we are wrapping up now
52:39John on broken bones. Do you realize that you got this close?
52:44To being a pastor and a Bible teacher earlier in this podcast John you got this close
52:50And I will tell you where you got this close. You did fantastic. You say you aren't but you got this close
52:57Because you said Psalm 34 20, isn't that a Messianic prophecy?
53:04Isn't that what that verse is?
53:07Isn't that presumptuous of us to say I'm gonna claim Psalm 34 20
53:13That verse was fulfilled
53:15according to John's gospel in John 19 when the soldiers went to break a bone because they did that to
53:23expedite the death of the person they saw that our Lord was already dead and
53:28So they didn't break his bone and John said so that the scripture can be fulfilled
53:34That not a bone of his was broken. So here we are. We crazy charismatics running around
53:41Hopscotching connecting the dots
53:44Naven and claim it all through the Bible pulling all these verses out of context
53:48That's a verse that's talking about the Lord Jesus as he is our sacrifice on Calvary and we have the audacity
53:56To say retroactively I'm gonna claim that even though I have a broken bone
54:00I'm gonna claim that I don't have a broken bone and it's a Messianic prophecy and promise, you know
54:07I just had this conversation earlier today as recording a podcast with a guy and I said when I was in the cult
54:13I was an oddity because I was one of the few people I actually read my Bible. I knew what was in it
54:20I was manipulated and indoctrinated and sometimes I'd read
54:25And it was I don't know how to explain this. It's like my mind shut off
54:28I would read passages that in hindsight they were condemning everything that the cult stood for
54:35But I just my mind shut off, but I did read it and then after I left it's like suddenly those opened up
54:41But the veil that I had that was keeping me from understanding what I was reading suddenly lifted
54:47But then after I left and I started attending other churches
54:51I found that I'm still an oddity and it's surprising to me that not many people who even are Christian
54:58Actually read their Bible, but if you read it
55:01Passages like the psalms the psalm that you're mentioning. I
55:05Mean, I mean that's common knowledge. If you actually read the thing you just read the passages and they they they're self-explanatory
55:11Right. Why would you apply this to a broken bone that you've already got but none of it makes sense
55:18but the fact that
55:20Men like Hobart Freeman men. Well, I doubt Branham had any knowledge beforehand
55:26Although there is some question whether he went to seminary
55:29But the fact that some people actually know what it means and they decide to turn away from it
55:36that's troubling because these men they some of them came in contact with the truth at some point and they decided to abandon the
55:43Truth and let's say the exact opposite of what this thing says and is it mind control?
55:49I don't know, you know, it's hard for me to picture somebody like Hobart Freeman being
55:54suddenly trapped into this and suddenly gradually
55:58Convinced to
56:00Abandon all of his teaching there had to been something else and what was it?
56:04Don't know that I can really answer that. I know that Hobart knew from reading John 19 that Psalm
56:113420 is a messianic prophecy, but they just always thought that there were
56:17dual triple
56:19multiple applications of every passage and everybody was so selfish
56:24they're just desperately looking for something for themselves and
56:29There is plenty in the Bible for us
56:32Without twisting something out of context. It's not for us like the shoes of the Israelites in the Sinai
56:40Wilderness, there are plenty of passages for us
56:42There's plenty of truth to apply as a matter of fact, you know
56:46Our problem is there's so much truth and we don't apply it to ourself that that's the whole problem
56:53We all live a hypocritical life
56:55God has so many commandments in the New Testament for us to practice
56:59One of them is to love your neighbor as yourself and we don't do that because if they don't agree with us in our cult
57:05We just kick them out and never have anything to do with them again
57:09Well, you have failed that the one of the most basic verses in the Bible to love your neighbor as yourself
57:15You have grossly failed that verse
57:17So why go looking for broken-bone verses when we can't even deal with the things that are sitting right in front of us
57:24Well, I'm just glad and fortunate that I didn't have the same thing that the Freemanites did in the Branham cult
57:32I could go get a cast I could take it off
57:34We we had not gone to that level of extremism
57:38But I have a I have a running theory that some of these guys that go into the more extreme patterns
57:44They're just a little mentally unstable and that may be the answer to all of it. So
57:49There's there's a lot to explore there, but we'll save that one for another podcast
57:54So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web
57:58You can find us at William Brannum org for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation
58:04You can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR
58:08available on Amazon Kindle and audible
58:14You
58:44You
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