'Expulsion: There's no such thing as the emigration of Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip'

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00:00Well, to continue discussing this, we can cross now to London and speak with Dr. H.A. Hellyer.

00:07He's a senior fellow in geopolitics, international security, and Middle East studies at the Royal

00:12United Services Institute for Defense and Security Studies. Dr. Hellyer, thank you so much for

00:18joining us today on the program. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

00:24Now, we have been discussing here Israeli national security ministers' provocative actions.

00:30And what I want to ask you is, what was Ben Gavir hoping to achieve by praying at the Al-Asqa

00:38mosque compound?

00:44So Ben Gavir is renowned and frankly infamous for being one of the most extreme politicians.

00:53In mainstream Israeli politics. I do want to make it clear. He is an extremist, but he is

01:01mainstream because unfortunately his extremism has become entirely mainstream. He's in the

01:08cabinet, of course. He's not the only one that harbors these sorts of sentiments. And he's

01:14not really pulled up on it by the rest of the cabinet. And of course, not the prime minister

01:20per se. Also, while he was there, he went and decided to call for the full occupation of Gaza.

01:29Of course, Israel occupies Gaza already and has done since 1967. But what he meant was for the IDF to

01:36take full control on the ground, to annex it, to extend, quote unquote, Israel's sovereignty over it,

01:42and to promote the, quote unquote, emigration. And I put this in like quotation marks because there's

01:48no such thing as emigration of Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip. What we're talking about is

01:54expulsion. And expulsion is still expulsion even if you claim it's voluntary. If the conditions

02:03on the ground are so horrible and so incredibly repugnant to the idea of continued human existence

02:12that people feel they have no other choice than to leave, that's still expulsion. It's not emigration.

02:19And I would caution, including your own channel, for using this word without putting into context

02:25that the living conditions in Gaza are really quite grotesque. So the fact of the matter is that Ben

02:31Givir was trying to be provocative. He succeeded in being provocative. The Aqsa Mosque is occupied

02:37territory, according to the UN, the EU, France, the UK, in the entirety of the world's nations,

02:46with very few exceptions. Israel is the occupying power there. And there is indeed a status quo that

02:54is on the Aqsa Mosque compound. The Jordanians, by the way, they are the

03:01sort of guardian power of the religious sites in Jerusalem. Because of course, between 1948 and 67,

03:11the Jordanians were in charge. But it's not a religious group. Just a slight correction to

03:17your former speaker. It's not a religious group. They are actually government officials.

03:22I want to go back to your statement there on this idea of forced expulsions, making things so difficult

03:30that everyone would want to leave. We spoke with our correspondent in Jerusalem earlier,

03:37and she told us that a new poll in Israel showed that 80% of Israelis want the war in Gaza to end.

03:44And that's in direct opposition to the actions that the Israeli government is currently taking.

03:51And obviously, you know, that the far right members of the cabinet who are the most outspoken,

03:56as you've just been discussing. So where are we regarding talks, some kind of possible deal? I mean,

04:03can we get to one if members of the government are pushing for a forced expulsion of Palestinians in

04:10Gaza? So two things. First, I think it's correct that 80% of Israelis do want the war to end.

04:20However, this is really about the hostages. In the event that the hostages were released,

04:26I'm not sure that those numbers would hold. I think these are all about these numbers are all

04:31about the desire to get hostages out of Gaza. If there were no hostages in Gaza, I don't think that

04:36there would be remotely that number that would be quite so concerned about the war ending

04:40on Gaza. So that's one. Two, when it comes to actually getting a deal, we have gone to about

04:4922, almost 23 months of this war. We're approaching two years very soon. And on multiple occasions,

05:00as has been extremely well documented in the Israeli press, it has been on multiple occasions,

05:07the Netanyahu government that has scuttled the process of negotiations in order to continue

05:13the fighting period in order to return to fighting. We saw that after a pause in fighting was agreed in

05:22January of this year. It was then sabotaged thereafter so that Israel could go back to actually bombing and

05:30inflicting an incredible war on Gaza thereafter. So unfortunately, the political will is not there

05:38and has not been there since day one. And the only way that changes is if the Israelis feel that there

05:47are consequences from the international community and particularly from the United States, and less so

05:52from Europe, but I think also that's a factor, but I think primarily from the United States, that there

05:58must be a price that is levied upon the Israelis in order for them to feel that prosecuting this war

06:05on Gaza is too pricey, it's too costly. Without that, I don't think that you're going to send, see an end to

06:14the war anytime soon. I think on the contrary, the Israelis have made it very clear that their intended outcome

06:19is for Palestinians to be moved from the north into the south, be concentrated into a camp in the south

06:28on the ruins of Rafah on the border of Egypt, and then quote-unquote encourage the migration of

06:35Palestinians away. The Israeli ministers and officials have said this very plainly, very transparently,

06:42very openly, and I think we all need to realize that this is actually something that they take very

06:48seriously, so we should as well. We should recognize that this is what they intend to do,

06:53and if we don't take them at their word, I'm afraid that we'll just see a continuation of the last 23

07:00months. Now, Dr. Hellyer, I want to take a moment and talk about the conditions in Gaza. As we've seen,

07:09you know, they're deteriorating. Today, officials reported 27 Palestinians trying to get food were shot

07:16dead. Aid agencies are warning famine is in closing on the enclave. European countries have begun

07:24airdropping food, but that's not nearly enough to counter any of this, is it?

07:31So, first of all, airdrops are the most inefficient, ineffective way of getting aid into any territory.

07:37You can have an airdrop, and it accounts for about two trucks worth of food or supplies of any sort.

07:46So, it's really land, border, crossings, what we need. In terms of the conditions, I want to make it

07:52clear to your viewers, there are several European countries that have already called this genocide.

07:58There are Israeli figures, including a former attorney general, and human rights groups in Israel that

08:05have called this genocide. This is not a bad situation or a deteriorating humanitarian situation.

08:13It goes far beyond that. It's one of the most incredible situations that I've seen in my career.

08:22And I say that it's incredible because Israel is an ally of many European states, if not the West in

08:29general. It is entirely possible for pressure and leverage to be placed upon the Israelis in order to

08:36make this stop. And that's what has to happen now.

08:41And I just want to finish up with one last question. I want to swing back to the hostages and those videos

08:49that have been released. You know, they've sparked international outrage, condemnation for the

08:55condition of the hostages. What was Hamas's goal in sharing such images? Because certainly it's not

09:02gained them any sympathy.

09:07No, it hasn't. But I'm afraid you'll have to ask Hamas what they think that they're trying to do

09:11with this. I would also point out to your viewers that, you know, everybody in Gaza is going to suffer

09:17as a result of this incredible starvation campaign that is underway. Everybody, children, men, women,

09:29including people who have been taken captive or hostages. So I don't think that there should be

09:35any surprise there that anybody in Gaza is in a terrible situation. But as to what Hamas were intending

09:42to do with this, you know, quite, at the very least, distasteful and frankly, disgusting propaganda

09:49video, you'd have to ask them. Dr. Hellyer, thank you so much for joining us today on the program.

09:56That's Dr. Hellyer from the Royal United Services Institute for Defense and Security Studies in London.

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