Surviving Spiritual Abuse: What the Church Won’t Say | Naomi Wright | Episode 393 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Naomi discuss their journey in helping people recover from controlling religious environments. Naomi shares how her organization, BeEmboldened, has expanded mentoring services and created trauma-informed spaces where survivors can rebuild trust in community. They reflect on the challenges of helping people process complex emotions like grief, fear, and social anxiety after leaving spiritually manipulative groups. Both agree that support needs to be relational and gentle, not agenda-driven or forced, especially for those still triggered by certain religious phrases or environments.  They go on to unpack some of their biggest frustrations with how mainstream religious communities respond to survivors. Naomi criticizes the misuse of scripture and common catchphrases like “under proper authority,” while John warns against the idea of “accidental demons” and spiritual paranoia. Together, they emphasize the importance of real psychological support, spiritual patience, and trauma-informed education for churches that want to help. They conclude with reflections on empathy, compassion, and the long-term work of restoration—along with an invitation to Naomi’s upcoming in-person event for those seeking safe connection.  BeEmboldened: https://www.beemboldened.com/ Living Out Freedom Conference: https://www.beemboldened.com/lof  00:00 Introduction 00:32 Reconnecting with Naomi Wright 01:52 Early Podcast Days & Studio Setups 03:03 The Unexpected Longevity of the Project 03:40 Linking Branhamism to Other Movements 04:12 Be Emboldened: Growth and Services 05:54 Upcoming 2025 Trauma-Informed Conference 07:59 Creating Safe Spaces for Survivors 09:24 Rebuilding Trust After Spiritual Abuse 10:27 The Pressure to “Get Back in Church” 11:42 Pet Peeve: The “Proper Authority” Doctrine 13:14 Pet Peeve: “In the World, Not of It” Misuse 14:39 Joy and Guilt in Newfound Freedoms 15:58 Family Fear and the Cult Recovery Journey 17:31 Letting People Heal on Their Own Timeline 18:52 Teenage Doubts and Contradictions 20:13 Accidental Demons & Colossians 2 22:01 Legalism in Mainstream Churches 23:28 Biblical Mandate to Publicly Call Out Abuse 24:53 Pet Peeve: “You’re Causing Division” Accusation 26:11 Reading 1 Timothy 5:17–21 and Explaining Witnesses 28:07 The Role of Social Media in Speaking Out 28:31 Closing Thoughts on Authority and Calling Abuse Out 29:03 Daily Resistance and Helping Those Who Resist Help 30:37 Breaking Through Cult Programming 31:46 Pet Peeve: Demonization of Mental Health Support 33:21 The Church’s Failure to Understand Cult Trauma 34:39 Be Emboldened’s Educational Outreach to Churches 36:22 Bible-Thumping vs. Trauma-Informed Healing 37:09 Churches That Unwittingly Push Survivors Away 38:02 Working With Families Who Want to Help 39:48 Helping Without Platitudes 40:12 Reaching Cult Members in Neighborhoods 41:35 Why Debate Reawakens the Cult Identity 42:36 Conferences as a Tool for Learning and Connection 43:01 The Need for Relational, Not Transactio

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Naomi Wright, founder

00:47of B.M. Bolden.

00:48Naomi, it's good to have you back on here.

00:51We did a series of podcasts a long time ago, and they were so much fun going through all

00:58of the questions that everybody had, and anyway, I wanted to reconnect with you and find out

01:03how things are going and talk about Be Emboldened and all of the things that goes on behind the

01:08scenes, because not many people are aware.

01:11If you reach out to my website for help, there are certain kinds of things that I can help

01:16with answers and finding history, that sort of thing.

01:19But when it gets into the spiritual abuse, that's where I usually call Naomi or send her

01:24an email and connect people. So, good to put a face to the people who are being connected

01:29behind the scenes and invite anybody else who is looking for help in spiritual abuse to reach

01:36out to me or reach out to Naomi. So, welcome back.

01:40Thanks. Yeah, it's been a long time. We were just reminiscing about that. I'm like, gosh,

01:44I remember sitting on a floor in our apartment, mine and Michael's apartment, and you were propped

01:53up on an ottoman, me trying to record this, because we were out in the middle of nowhere

01:58and we had the world's worst internet.

02:01And so, that's how we recorded that series.

02:04Yeah, and I was, a lot of people don't know, so in this recording studio, it was not a studio

02:10at that time. Back behind me, there's a little closet. And I had, I had purchased a lot of

02:16soundproofing equipment and put all of that into a closet. And I was like huddled down in

02:20this dark, scary place when you were recording with me.

02:24You were, because you put that background on where it was like, what, some kind of Star Wars

02:27thing or something like that?

02:29Yeah.

02:30Yeah.

02:31Look how far we've come. We have actual chairs and spaces that you can move around in.

02:38It's amazing how far we've come. And the funny part is, even then, I really had no idea that it

02:45was going to last as long as it did. I think I had that conversation with you. I've actually

02:51walked away from this quite a few times. And I try to, whenever I was walking away in the past,

02:57I would try to set up enough research that anybody who is connected into Branhamism could

03:03look at the research and there's plenty to escape. And then what would happen, the cult would

03:07attack and bring it all down. And so then my exit strategy was gone. So I'd be forced to come

03:13back. And then recently, we started connecting it to all of these other movements. And some of the

03:20big ones, International House of Prayer in Kansas City, when we found out that that was essentially

03:25Branhamism 2.0, and so much began to develop from that, I started having people contact me where I

03:33don't have research information yet published. So now that's into hyperdrive. I'm trying to quickly

03:39create resources for people. And I don't know that there will ever be an exit strategy.

03:45Yeah, I don't know if there'll be a strategy other than just like, poof, he's gone.

03:49Where'd he go? I'm not telling. I won't tell. I'll keep your secret.

03:54So tell us a little bit about Be Emboldened. You have been actively working. You're a lot busier

04:00than me, which is kind of hard to do for anybody who doesn't know how busy I can get. Things have

04:08been developing on your end. What is new with Be Emboldened?

04:12Oh, when we first started, okay, so when you and I first met and we started talking, I think we were

04:19just getting our mentoring services going. I think the organization was only maybe a year old.

04:25And I think we had only been really a fully formed organization for a matter of months.

04:31So we've grown a lot throughout those four years. Our mentoring services have blown up.

04:38We have two other mentors on the team now, which is incredible. They're incredible.

04:43And that's kind of a slow thing. Like I just have to meet people along the way,

04:47really get to know them, get to really trust each other, like, no, okay, this is going to be a good

04:50fit. Because it's really scary to say, oh, yeah, talk with this person. You know that. We had to get

04:56to know each other. You're like, ah, like, who am I referring them to?

05:00I'm still scared of her, by the way.

05:04Oh, my. All good reasons. So that's been really incredible. We also have a month-to-month

05:15for people who want to gather with others in a very safe, low-risk way. So for all of us who have

05:20been through spiritual abuse, brittimism or other, charismatic or other, you know, hyper-charismatic

05:27or other, not coming at charismania when it's healthy, just when it's full of it. So for anyone

05:36who's like, okay, yeah, I want to dip my toe back in. I want to try to practice this rebuilding

05:41trust thing, but I want to do it in a really low-risk environment. I still want some psychoeducation

05:45and things like that because I'm learning. And so we have that option for people. We have resources

05:49for churches at this point. We just launched our second digital course. Our third is already done.

05:54It's coming out in the fall. And we have our first in-person conference in Sevierville, Tennessee in

06:00September of this year. So I know this will live out there forever for the rest of time because

06:06this is going to be such a golden episode, but this is 2025 that we're talking about here. So

06:12September 12th and 13th, 2025, for anyone who is wanting to gather again in a low-risk way,

06:20we're taking an approach that I haven't really seen much of and is very close to my heart,

06:26which is a trauma-informed approach to having these conversations. It's important in all of the work

06:31that we do at Be Emboldened, but I think it's also important when we actually get people in a room.

06:36So we're going to have things like weighted blankets and coloring books, and you can stand

06:40up and move around and floor seating and some rocking chairs and not just that more corporate

06:46feel for a conference, more like we're sitting together and having a conversation. So I'm looking

06:52forward to that. We have, I think, seven different presenters. There's eight on our website,

06:57but I think it's because they slapped my face on there and I'm not presenting, I'm emceeing.

07:01So it's like, I don't think my face should have been. I think the webmaster just liked that it was

07:04even with four and four. I was like, I don't actually belong in that lineup. So I think

07:08there's seven. And yeah, tickets are still open for that. We also have some scholarships available

07:13that have come available for anyone who maybe has a need there. But we also looked for a location

07:18that would kind of balance out the fact that this is a, not the most fun stuff to be talking about.

07:27So we're like, well, let's set it up. So it can be a family vacay. And there's an indoor

07:31water park that just got a $40 million renovation on it. And it's right by the entrance to the

07:36Smoky Mountains National Park. And so it's just a really good spot to be able to come and also

07:40blow off some steam, have some fun, get out into nature. If you're like me and you find that helpful

07:46and be able to bring the family and stuff. So that's a big thing for us. I did not have hosting

07:52a conference on my radar, but I also did not have be emboldened on my radar five years ago or five

07:58and a half years ago. So I'm super, I feel really, really privileged to be able to, to, I mean,

08:06all of the people, John, that we've gotten to meet at this point in this work. I mean, we meet the best

08:12people.

08:13We do. And it's funny because you organize things so well. It's different from what I would have ever

08:19expected. I would picture a gathering of ex-cult members to be kind of like a five-step program.

08:25Hi, my name is John. I was in a cult and people go around the room, but what you're describing is

08:31actually a good and helpful thing. I've had people who went to some of the gatherings that

08:37you have, and I've attended a couple and people get to know each other and they are really good

08:41people. And some of the people, it's really sad because you watch how the cult has robbed so much

08:48of their lives. And then after they're able to get free and get themselves established,

08:54it's this mixed emotion because they're moving on in life. They're starting to experience new things

09:00and things that they were not allowed to. But there's always this anchor that reminds them of

09:06their past. And unless you can get over that, unless you can get over that weight that you're going to

09:11carry around the rest of your life, some people are just suffering from it.

09:14And so watching people overcome that suffering is, I don't know about you, but for me, it's just,

09:20it touches me and I get emotional because of that. So everything that you're describing is

09:25very helpful to a lot of people.

09:27It is an incredible experience to get to see. Like I said, I really do feel like it's a privilege

09:32to get to see other people who go through this and they don't have to go through it alone.

09:40Um, I think a lot of us have needed to go through it alone because we just didn't know anybody else

09:45at the time, or we didn't know how to figure out like who was safe or who to trust and things like

09:51that. And to be able to have a resource and have a conversation and be like, okay, this person also

09:58gets it. They're not looking at me. Like I have three heads. They're not trying to rush me like back

10:04into something. There isn't this agenda of like, you gotta be back in church on Sunday or you got,

10:08you know, it's like, no, where are you at and where are you trying to go? And then how do we

10:12come alongside you to assist you in getting there? So that's our approach.

10:18And I think that's critical because not everybody is ready yet even to go back to church. I know

10:23several people that I know, they just can't, they can't go through that emotional turmoil that they

10:30have sitting, just sitting in a pew. I still, from time to time, I don't go that often because

10:35I have these triggers and I'll be sitting. I remember the last real hard trigger that hit me

10:41was during an Easter service. And it was such a simple, uplifting, awesome sermon about Easter. I

10:52mean, you shouldn't be triggered by this, right? But all he did was mention that one single verse

10:58that one of the verses that was commonly used in the cult as loaded language triggered all that

11:04loaded language in my head and I was ready to explode. And I know that there are people who

11:10are suffering like that because I still do. And I still, from time to time, have that. And

11:14not everybody is ready to jump back in. And understanding that, I think, is helpful.

11:21I do take an issue. I have people who are of the opposite opinion. They think, well, the way to help

11:27somebody is to get them back in church and get them under their proper authority. And I'm like,

11:33you don't really understand how this works, right? Speaking of which, I think we should probably

11:38spend some time on that. What are the things that are your pet peeves in all of this that you do?

11:44Well, that would be one of them.

11:47Absolutely.

11:48Proper authority. Okay, who is the proper authority? Let's slow down and ask that question. And what does

11:53it mean then to be under that authority? And can you remove their authority? Can you get out from

11:58under that? I mean, there's just a lot of questions that go on with that. And anyone who's out there

12:03claiming, okay, I'm your authority, I think it's really similar to someone who has to walk around

12:09and talk about how mature they are, or talk about how humble they are. You're like, I'm pretty sure

12:15mature, humble people don't actually say that. And I think people that maybe warrant any sort of

12:21influence in your life probably are not demanding that they have influence in your life.

12:27Unless you're four, okay? Like, I mean, that's, we're different, right? We're talking about adults.

12:34I'm the most humble person that you've ever met.

12:37Right?

12:38I've heard people say this, and it's like, you know, and that's one of the things that really

12:43gets you. Whenever you escape something like this, the central figures of most of the cults that have

12:49emerged from this nonsense, anybody who is still in the cult, they will say, no, this person's not

12:55like this. This is the most humble man ever, or female. There are some female cult leaders. This

13:00is the most humble female ever, who also claim to be that they were the next thing to God.

13:05Yeah. They're so humble, but they're one of the two witnesses, or they're whatever it may be. It's

13:12like, okay. Another one that's been bugging me lately is this phrase from scripture about like

13:20being in the world, but not of it. And how none of these high control groups remember the being in

13:28it part? I was like, why ain't anybody in it anymore? Where'd everybody go?

13:36Yeah. You know, and that, it bothers me too. There are people who, whenever they leave the cult,

13:43they want to experience the things that they've never, ever experienced. And granted, all that said,

13:49there has to be some balance, so don't get me wrong when I say this. But many times, I will watch

13:54somebody leave a cult, and then they will experience things that most teenagers might enjoy.

14:01And for example, one of the things that I do is I'll go out to an arcade room, and I'll take the

14:06boys, and we're playing these old quarter machines. I don't know if you remember them from the 80s,

14:11because that was one of the things that was taboo in the cult. Interestingly, my father was a champion

14:19Ms. Pac-Man player, so he loved those things. But going into an actual arcade, it was this,

14:25I don't know, it was this double standard, because I would be preached, don't do this. But then,

14:30if there was ever a Ms. Pac-Man machine, we were right there. But physically going into an arcade is

14:36taboo. And here, it's like 15 miles from my house, they have this awesome place where you walk in,

14:43and there's two levels of every single arcade game that you can imagine from the 1980s.

14:49And so I'll go do this, because this is something that I didn't get to experience.

14:54And I have seen people who are working with spiritual leaders, so-called spiritual leaders,

15:00who, some of them have good intentions, but they don't want them, they want to put so many

15:05restraints on their experience that they're really controlling the narrative. And so the people

15:11can't really find their own footing. And my advice whenever I see something like this is think back

15:18to when you were a teenager, if you were never in this, look at the mistakes you made, but yet you're

15:25experiencing things that these people never have. So they're going to make some mistakes,

15:30they're going to do some things that probably is not helpful. And that's how you learn, you learn from

15:35your mistakes. So I'm a little bit different than my peers in that I think people should have their

15:40own journey, with enough restraint not to get into trouble.

15:45Sure. Yes. And I think, I would piggyback this on it, a little bit of a different kind of concept,

15:52but I think they relate. There is so much worry I see in family members, which I get it. Like, to be a

16:01loved one with a family member who's going through something difficult, or has gotten involved in a high

16:07control group, or is coming out, and they're kind of like, okay, where are they going to land? Or like,

16:12I get when you love and care for someone, and you're not sure what exactly is going on with them,

16:17like that's scary, and it's stressful. And I remember actually, my husband has spoken about

16:22that, because we got married. And four months later, I realized I had been raised in an apocalyptic

16:27doomsday cult, you know, and I hadn't really known what to do with all that yet. And he was concerned,

16:34he's like, well, I don't, I don't know who she's going to end up being now. And I married her

16:39already. So, what's going to happen? Which is really like terrifying looking back on it. At the

16:45time, I was just like, I'm going to be fine. Don't worry about it. But in retrospect, I'm like, dang,

16:49like that, that's an unfortunate situation to find yourself in. And I know there's others out there who

16:55have. But when people are, they're figuring stuff out, they're getting to do things that they

17:01haven't done before. And I agree with you, like, we're not saying whatever it is, that would be

17:06where they end up harming themselves. But we're getting to have these experiences that really are

17:12not actually a problem, most likely, then I don't think we have to be so worried about the timeline.

17:20Like, we can just settle in and have a sense of patience of, if someone is saying that they believe

17:27in God, and God is omniscient, omnipresent, he's, and supposedly Jesus is, like, coming back soon,

17:35it's been 2,000 years already, like, it gives us an idea of timeline, like, patience. And it's okay

17:41to, like, let people have time to figure this out. We don't have to be so worried about it.

17:48If they are wanting to move forward in a certain direction, then they're going to move forward in

17:54that direction. It's just going to be not totally linear. There's going to be some ducking and some

18:00moving around and some, you know, obstacles and stuff like that. And I remember reassuring Michael

18:06of that when I was like, yeah, I'm not going to church. I'm not going to a small group. Oh,

18:11my goodness, that really made me want to come out of my skin. I was like, no one's going to tell me

18:15that these are my people. I'm going to go find my own people and gather them. Well, now it sounds like

18:20I'm a cult leader. Okay, I don't mean it like that either. Like, I'm just going to make my own

18:23friends. Okay, I'm going to make my own friends and then we'll hang out and go to the movies.

18:28So that was what I needed to do. That's what I could do. That's what was actually available to

18:35me because my nervous system was not going to allow anything else. And there's some legit

18:39neuroscience that goes along with that. But yeah, so I think, I have hair on my mouth, but I think,

18:47John, just piggybacking on what you were saying, like, we don't have to be so, so worried either.

18:52It's going to be okay. And that's one of those other pet peeves, actually, that I'll add before

18:56you jump back in. And I remember actually being a teenager, and these were some of those, like,

19:01first things I caught with my dad where I'm like, this seems off. Like, not that I wished we had been

19:11more evangelistic, because that would have been really unfortunate in retrospect. If we had the one

19:17true truth, why on earth weren't we telling anybody? And then two, if God was everywhere,

19:23and he was all-powerful, why couldn't I travel? And if I traveled, I'd, like, miss the rapture. Like,

19:29wouldn't he know where I am? And just so you guys know, anyone who listens to this, I'm saying this

19:34as a Christian. Like, I'm not trying to be heretical or be flippant about God and his word and the

19:40Christian faith. I'm not. I'm being flippant about some of the beliefs that I had been raised with that

19:46are so contradictory to what I actually even see in scripture. And like, wow, you know, some of these

19:53things just don't actually make sense together. And so, let's go ahead and question them. And that

19:59would be, again, those are a couple other little examples that started for me as a teen. But now,

20:06okay, if he loves us, and all these things are true, and he knows, and he's patient, and he's faithful,

20:14and he's, and someone is seeking, then we can relax and just show up for them and be a companion

20:20through it. Well, and to piggyback on your piggyback, one of the things that really bothers me,

20:27we escaped this cult, and the cult was overly controlling, manipulative, and you could catch

20:34this accidental demon. You could walk along, say something, do something, and accidentally get a

20:39demon, and you've got to come back to the church, and we're going to cast it out of you.

20:44Right, like he stepped on some dog poo.

20:46It's like, yeah, it's crazy. And whenever I left this thing, I've read the Bible over and over and

20:53over and over again, lost count of the times, just cover to cover, just to wash it all out of my head.

21:00And there were passages that really shook the way that I had built my foundation.

21:05My foundation was wrong. One of them was Colossians 2. So this is a world that is filled with

21:12pagan practices, and I don't know what it looked like back then, child sacrifice. There was all

21:18kinds of bad, evil things. And in Colossians 2, Paul says that God has conquered these principalities,

21:27and therefore let no man judge you when you eat, drink, I'm going off of memory here,

21:35respect to a holiday or a new moon or a Sabbath. What he's describing are pagan festivals, if you

21:40really understand what's happening in the region, in this area. And he's telling them that you're not

21:47going to catch an accidental demon. And he's specifically writing to people who are trying

21:52to be as overbearing as some of the people in religion were to us. One of my pet peeves is that

21:59whenever somebody escapes this, I have found that a lot of that type of mentality has crept into even

22:06mainstream churches. And they want to be overbearing and try to stop them from catching the accidental

22:13demon. And it just bothers me to no end, because is your God powerless? That's usually what I ask them,

22:19is your God powerless to protect you over this? And I've been trying to think of a good example,

22:25one that somebody won't pick up, because I don't want to single anybody out. But say hypothetically

22:31that in my arcade, I'm there, I'm playing a game, and one of these people comes in and says,

22:36oh, did you realize that there's a Hindu symbol on the side of this arcade game? You're going to,

22:43you're going to catch a demon. You're entertaining the demons. This is a literal thing that has happened to

22:48me and even some of my co-hosts, people who are in mainstream religion or charismania. They'll say,

22:54did you know that this symbol you're wearing, this symbol that you're touching, that is some pagan

22:59practice. It's Wicca, it's Hindu, it's whatever. And they go to such extremes like, I'm not worshiping,

23:07if I'm playing this game, I'm not worshiping the Hindu gods, right? But if you go back to Colossians

23:12and you understand what Paul is saying here, don't let those people ruin your lives. Go have fun. God

23:17is protecting you. You can eat the meat that has been sacrificed to the idols. That's how open this

23:23was. But people have tried to add these restraints, and that really bothers me.

23:29And we see that all the way back in Scripture too, where Paul actually rebukes Peter for adding a

23:35restriction. Peter of all people, I mean, that's pretty bold. So it's not new, right? And I think what's,

23:42interesting about it to me is the leaders who are saying these things are claiming that they are

23:53so knowledgeable about Scripture, and yet they're missing so much. Another example that comes to mind

24:03for me that gets me, and I am actually going to read it because I think it's worth actually reading.

24:10We hear so much about Matthew 18, and we hear so much about there being division,

24:17people causing division if we're going to speak up about something, which is what you and I are

24:21literally doing right now. So I think this is really relevant. Okay, we're speaking out about

24:26problems in the church. Really part of the church, not part of the church. I don't know. I mean,

24:35I have opinions on that, but whether it's a high control cult or it's whomever's following you has

24:40come out of like IHOP or something like that as well, more of the hyper-charismatic movement,

24:45new apostolic reformation movement. We get told, okay, you're speaking up, and so you're causing

24:51division. You're now the problem. And it's also like the Trump sin somehow. Like, well,

24:58you're speaking up, and you caused division, so you just trumped child abuse. Like, whatever it is,

25:07like, this is the worst. And so now we're just going to nullify everything that you have to say.

25:12Like, your testimony is thrown out. And I just want to point out for everyone that if you haven't

25:19come across it recently, because I had not, and then I was reminded of it. I'm like, oh my goodness,

25:26I need this one at the ready all the time. 1 Timothy 5, 17 through 21. And so this is also a

25:35disclaimer that I am actually going to read this. So trigger warning for anyone who might not benefit

25:40from having this read to you. I am going to read it in the NIV though, not in the KJV. So if you feel

25:46you must pray for me, go ahead. But I'll also say that it might be less triggering because I'm

25:52reading it in the NIV. So I'm doing it on purpose.

25:54You're going to catch the NIV demon.

25:57Should I do the ESV? Like, which one is everyone going to be okay with it? So you can go pull it

26:04up in the KJV if that's more comfortable, but I think it might be less triggering for some if I

26:07don't read that one. So the elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double

26:12honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. First scripture says, do not muzzle

26:17an ox while it's treading on the grain and the worker deserves his wages. Do not entertain an

26:22accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. There's more about what

26:28is a witness. So like if someone is claiming that they were abused and then they're showing signs of

26:33like trauma, those signs of trauma would also be another witness. This is not literally multiple

26:39people who have to be there. Like say a child is abused, probably nobody else was there.

26:43But if you then see the child is acting out differently, they're saying certain things,

26:49then okay, no, that's another indicator. That's another kind of witness to what has happened.

26:54So I just want to clarify that quickly. But those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before

27:00everyone so that others may take warning. I charge you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and

27:06they elect angels to keep these instructions without partiality and to do nothing out of

27:12favoritism. So this definitely is saying if you just like the guy, you have some sort of allegiance

27:19or loyalty to the guy. And this could be a girl too. So I'm just saying guy because I'm thinking of

27:23William Brenham at the moment. But it doesn't matter. This isn't supposed to be partial. We're not

27:30supposed to be showing favoritism here. If something has been wrong, then we're supposed

27:36to say it as loud as what was said wrong. And again, all this, like you're causing division,

27:43everyone has to be quiet. Like it's just constant and it's exhausting. So I'm like, you guys, like,

27:48and I'm not talking to your audience. So when I'm saying you guys, I'm not talking to all of you who

27:51are watching and listening. I'm talking bigger picture when I'm seeing comments on Bea and Bolden's

27:55videos, comments on your videos, comments on all the videos of everyone out there right now who's

28:00speaking to these things of your causing division. What are you doing? You need to sit down and be

28:05quiet. It says in the Bible that we shouldn't. And if we didn't have social media, we wouldn't be

28:11posting it on social media. If all of these people weren't putting their sermons and their false

28:16teachings and abusing people behind the scenes and putting it on social media, we wouldn't have to say

28:21it this loud. But they are. So we do have to say it this loud. So that's another pet peeve right now.

28:27Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern

28:32Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the

28:38new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

28:45william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of

28:52John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

28:58audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various

29:05people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support

29:11the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe

29:17to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical

29:23Research, we want to thank you for your support. Many of the things that we go through behind the

29:28scenes, not many people who have escaped this are aware, and people who are on the outside looking in

29:35have never experienced, they have no concept of what it is that we go through, trying to help people.

29:39We face quite a bit of resistance trying to help people. And even from the people we're trying

29:46to help, sometimes we have resistance from those people. And it gets really interesting because

29:52I've, you've probably had this too, I've had people who fought me tooth and nail for no reason.

29:58You know, like I don't actively go after people and say, hey, you need to leave the cult. But what

30:03happens is they stumble upon my research and then they start wanting to fight with me because

30:08unfortunately, that's how they were programmed. The cults program you to fight with somebody who

30:14challenges your opinion. Mentally, you can't help it. And I understand that. So they start fighting

30:19with me. And I just simply, I don't fight back. I don't, I don't engage in arguments. But if they

30:25ask a question, I will answer it truthfully. And whenever they look at my answer and eventually come to the

30:32conclusion, wait a minute, what John's saying is actually true. Some of them wake up and then they

30:38later come back and they apologize for how they behaved. And my answer is always simply, there's

30:44no need for apology. I was the same way when I was indoctrinated in the cults. But people have no idea

30:50what we go through on a day-to-day basis. That waking up every morning to hate mail isn't as fun as

30:56some people might think. Yes. And it's not true that it never has a wearing effect. Like it can be

31:02tiring. You know, we need breaks. And one of the other things that is like a consistent battle to have

31:13to push back on and continue to educate on. And again, I say all of this from like, and I get it just

31:19like you're saying, John, like we get it. Like we've been there too. And I'm not speaking to the

31:25survivors who are kind of wrestling through like what's okay and what's not okay. And feeling a lot

31:30of that pressure and a lot of that fear. I have endless empathy and compassion. I know exactly what

31:34that feels like and exactly how long it can hang around and it can pop its head back up. And it is

31:40a difficult, difficult journey to take on. And for those though, who are teaching this stuff

31:50and are still teaching it, not those who were teaching it and are like, oh, wait,

31:55maybe I shouldn't. And let me reevaluate and then share what I've learned. Those who are perpetuating

32:02all of it, who are coming at the idea of someone actually getting help at all. Like don't talk to

32:10anyone who's trained. Don't talk to anyone who's licensed. Don't talk to anyone who's a professional.

32:16Don't talk to anyone outside of your group. Don't get another perspective, right? That like

32:22information control so that we can have better thought behavior control. And so no mental health,

32:29let's not talk about mental health. Let's only use the scriptures and pretend that we haven't learned

32:35anything in 2000 years about neuroscience, about how in the framework of a Christian, how the Lord

32:43designed our brains and our bodies to function. We get to learn about that. It's cool. It's really

32:49cool stuff. It's really interesting stuff. And it helps us a lot actually in helping others. It gives

32:53us a lot of good, solid information where we can be more effective in our helping. It's not just like

33:00well-intentioned helping. It could be effective helping. So we come up against a good amount of

33:05that too. People are, they're just afraid. And again, I understand the fear. I'm frustrated by the

33:10teaching that is being perpetuated. That's causing that fear because it keeps people isolated

33:16in their pain and their grief and their confusion and their suffering. And oftentimes can also then

33:23keep them at least somewhat tethered to what was back there that they were trying to get out of

33:28because they don't have support to work it through. So I see it as such a control tactic that can really

33:34just linger for someone, even when they have taken steps away.

33:38There was a good friend of mine who used to say that there are some people who are so

33:42heavenly minded, there are no, they are no earthly good, or they're so earthly minded that they are

33:47no heavenly good. And this was his simple way of saying that people need balance, which is something

33:53that I've come to the same conclusion as I get older in life. But one of the things that you hit on,

34:00and I want to hit even harder. The problem that I see that exists in the cult world and non-cult world

34:08is that there are a lot of people who are in the position to help former cult members who don't want

34:16to take the time to understand how their brains work, understand the psychology behind it, understand

34:22how you help them. It's not that you can help them in the same way that you help everybody else in

34:28your congregation. There are different techniques and methods that you really have to focus your

34:34attention to understand, and they don't want to take the time to do it, unfortunately.

34:38And so what happens is, if they're a minister or they're an elder in a church who are trying to

34:46help these people, often what they do is they fall back to, well, let's look at the Bible and let's see

34:52what the Bible says about this. And they try to make it a one-size-fits-all, every passage can apply

34:57to today's world, but it doesn't. And that's really the problem here. I get often, you know,

35:05attacked because of going after and exposing the histories that have been covered up by some of

35:10these so-called super apostles or prophets or whatever. And one of the common attacks is,

35:16well, you don't need to do this. We have the Bible, and if they read Corinthians, they would know that

35:22this same problem has existed since the days of Paul. The same problem existed. That's partially true,

35:31but what didn't exist back then was a generator of cults that generated thousands of super apostles

35:38and prophets all around the globe because you only find Paul writing it to one letter to one city.

35:44He didn't write the same letter of super apostles to the whole world. So I have to believe that it

35:50wasn't as widespread as it is today. But more to the point, some of the problems we face today

35:56are for things that didn't exist in the Bible times. Like if you're wanting a sermon on how your

36:05children might be, I don't know, use the phone and get technology and connect to somebody who might

36:11be a predator, you're not going to find that in the Bible. They didn't have a phone back then. They

36:15didn't have this technology. Not everything fits and not everything applies. But if you try to use

36:22that mindset rather than understand how a person who is in a cult thinks, the problems that they face

36:30on a day-to-day basis, understand the triggers they have, understand just the struggles they have

36:38in general of even some of them even coming to church, if you don't take that leap, but instead

36:43you try to beat them over the head with the Bible even further, what happens is you push people away

36:49from Christianity altogether. And I see this. We've talked about in one of our episodes, we talked

36:54about re-victimization, which is a huge problem. But think of the opposite problem of that. Somebody

37:01who leaves a cult, who has been beating them over the head with the Bible forever, go into a

37:07mainstream church and find somebody who just really isn't willing to understand how the cult mindset

37:13works to give them proper help and instead tries to beat them over the head further. You're pushing

37:19people away. Absolutely. And something that I very much care about is being a support to the church,

37:27recognizing they don't, when I'm talking about, you know, different local bodies, I'm not talking

37:32like Big C Church. I realize I'm a part of that. What I'm talking about is, yeah, those local gatherings,

37:38those buildings that we go to, whether it's home church, whatever that building looks like. But for

37:44them to have someone to reach out to, recognizing that requires that humility word of, I'm not fully

37:52informed. And so either I want to get informed so that we can do more for our congregation, or I want

37:59to bring someone else in from a different organization who can help the person who needs help or the people

38:06who need help. And that's something I really care about offering. It's something that we've started

38:11offering over the past year. So it's a newer service. But the goal is that people learn.

38:18I love the education piece. And I love when people actually want to know, because it is nuanced. It

38:26is complex. Like there are complexities. Like I recognize, like I was tricky. I have a card for

38:37Michael. I haven't given him to it, given it to him yet. Cause I don't know if it's actually been

38:41relevant yet in our relationship of 12 years, but it's a Rubik's cube on the front. It says,

38:45I've been difficult. I should have given him that card so many times. So I know it's hard.

38:54It's difficult to figure out how to come alongside someone in a way that's actually helpful. Like

39:01one cut the platitudes, like, will it be okay? I mean, hopefully it will actually be okay,

39:07but it's not great to hear that when I'm not okay. So things like that. But it's, it's going

39:15to take, yeah, it's going to take time. It's going to take time and it's going to take a lot of

39:20compassion. And it's also going to take action at times, you know, just, okay, how do we show up for

39:25people and having someone to reach out to, to be like, okay, what do I do? And that's something

39:30else I get to do through being bold. And that is really fun for me as when I'm in contact with

39:36families, loved ones, friends who are like, okay, I have this person in my life and I want to do this

39:42well. How can I do this well? And being able to help equip them to be able to, it's just really

39:46fulfilling. Yeah, that's really good. One of the most common emails that I get from people who are on

39:51outside looking in is, in fact, I just got one yesterday. We have a email similar to this.

39:58We have a new family who just moved into the neighborhood. Turns out they're Branamites. I

40:03went in and I saw the halo photograph. I saw all of the stuff. What scriptures can I use to help them

40:09see the truth? And it's such a hard conversation because you have to mentally untangle the person

40:17who's actually trying to help mentally untangle what's in their thoughts and in their head and

40:22help them to understand that you may read that same passage to a person who's programmed in a cult

40:28and you're thinking you're saying one thing, but they're hearing something entirely different

40:33because they've been programmed and manipulated. And the words that you're saying don't register,

40:39just simply put, they don't register. And so you have to understand, you have to teach them as,

40:44as I respond to these, you have to teach them first how to start communicating, how to open up a

40:49dialogue, how to get below the surface of that cult identity that is so blocking of any, you know,

40:57information that doesn't agree with the cult leader. You have to go through all of those levels,

41:01which is a lot of work. And then once you're down to the authentic person, once you actually start

41:06engaging, then the part that people often miss is they want to have an argument or a debate

41:14to try to convince them by showing them something that they can't deny. But once you go through all

41:20those layers, if you do a debate or an argument, then suddenly the cult identity just blocks it all.

41:26So you actually have to plant seeds of truth while not engaging in a debate. So it's a very difficult

41:33process. And one of the, one of the reasons why I wanted to vent my pet peeves is because

41:38I don't think many people understand how difficult that actually is on a day-to-day basis.

41:43And people like you and I who are engaging others who are either in a cult or others who are wanting

41:49to help a cult, it's not simply that we can just respond in a single answer. It goes through

41:54chains of back and forth with emails and phone conversations. And sometimes I meet people for

42:00coffee who are wanting to help cult members to try to educate them how you do that process.

42:06And there are resources out there like Dr. Stephen Hassan's Freedom of Mind Foundation.

42:11I think he has some masterclasses you can go through, but it takes work to do that. And sadly,

42:18people who want to help who are in some of the churches, they want to help more for,

42:25I don't know, the prestige of being able to say, hey, I helped this person out of a cult.

42:30Rather than actually doing the homework that it takes to engage a person. So one of my pet peeves is

42:37just how do we, and I'm asking this rhetorically, how do we get the people who are wanting to help to

42:44go through that process of engaging, of learning, of understanding? And I have to feel like conferences

42:51like you're describing that you're about to host, I have to feel that those conferences would probably

42:57help. I think so. I hope so. It's relational. That's a word that comes to mind as I'm hearing

43:03you share, John. There's such a relational element. And I would have smelled a disingenuous one a mile

43:11away. If I felt like I was a project, a case study, someone had a motive of getting me out when I wasn't

43:22ready to get out. Ooh, I mean, I've been taught a lot about those kinds of people, right? I mean,

43:27I've been well-warned. So that was going to be a hard pass. Like, no, I've got to run.

43:32You're-

43:32Those are far beyond the accidental demon. Those were the actual demons.

43:36Right? Yes. That was not just I stepped in some dog poo. It's you are the dog poo.

43:42Like, I've got to get away from you. So it's not going to work. It has to be for real. And yes,

43:50so for those who want to learn more, and they want to better understand this audience, again,

43:56you're just not going to meet better people. I truly believe. I mean, I know people. I have people

44:03I could visit all over the world at this point. And I would love to. I want to do a world tour at

44:07some point, get to go see everybody. But my goodness, I'm like, I just, just lovely,

44:13lovely people. And so whenever I hear pushback from other places, there are some pockets within

44:20the Christian community who would think, you know, oh, you're not going to church, you're not doing

44:24this or whatever. And they would be very worried. And just like, these people are, they're getting

44:30after it. And we do not have to worry. I mean, we can learn from them truly. And it's, again,

44:36it's a privilege. And it's an honor. And so yeah, going back to the conference, I would love to see

44:42some more people coming from your neck of the woods. Because I have conversations with people

44:51from all of these different groups, there's always going to be a special place in my heart for people

44:55who have come from a message related background. So yeah, if anyone wants to come, reach out. If anyone

45:03has questions, again, we have some scholarships that have opened up that I'm excited to be able

45:07to help people out with. And yeah, I would love to be able to meet everyone. It's also going to be

45:12small enough. It's our first year doing this, like it's going to be not, not so small that it's like

45:18scary, intimate, but it's going to be small enough for like, you're actually going to get to like chat

45:21with presenters and I'll get to say hi. And you know, it's not like you just walk in and you sit in

45:26the really hard, uncomfortable chairs and you don't even get to talk to anybody.

45:29Well, I'm excited for you. I'm excited for all of the things that you're doing to help people. And

45:34I know that I've had many people who have been working with you who've contacted me and

45:39said how much it has helped them. And I'm very glad that you're doing what you're doing. So thank

45:45you so much for doing it. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Thank you for being who you are and being

45:52diligent in what you're doing and not giving up, but taking breaks, take breaks, continue to take

46:01breaks. They're good. And yes, I know my husband's going to watch this and be like, Naomi, take breaks

46:06and for helping because it's through people like you who are so genuine, like good people who care

46:14that help build the trust for people and say, oh yeah, like let's go see what B and Bolden's doing.

46:18And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, this is helpful. And then we get to actually help. So I wouldn't be

46:24able to help any of them if you weren't out there being true to who you are. So thank you for that,

46:29John. And I remember actually when I got your phone call and it was like, oh my goodness,

46:36it's working. I'm actually going to get to talk to people. I'm actually going to get to come

46:41alongside people. And oh my goodness, a few years later, it's crazy. It's crazy what has

46:48happened. And it's been fun to be a part of it with you.

46:51It has been a fun journey. We've vented all of our frustrations. I don't know that I have too many

46:57more frustrations, but beyond that, it's been a pleasant journey. And helping people, like you say,

47:04it's the big thing. That's really why I do everything that I do. And I know that's why

47:09you do it as well. So very glad to have met you and connected. And if anybody wants to go back and

47:15listen to our free and clear podcast, you can go check those out. We talked through several

47:21different questions and issues that people have. And if you want to go to Naomi's conference, Naomi,

47:26where can they go to find more information?

47:28If you go to beemboldened.com and you can just click from there, you'll see conference right up

47:35at the top. Or if you want to do the forward slash LOF, because it's called the Living Out Freedom

47:41Conference. So beemboldened.com slash LOF.

47:44Awesome. Well, thank you so much for doing this.

47:46It was fun. When do we get to record about pet peeves?

47:51Well, you're probably like, well, never, because it's probably not a great idea. But we did. And we hope

47:57all of you have enjoyed it. We're sure you have your own pet peeves as well. And again,

48:01they were not directed at you, the survivor. They're directed at what is happening out there

48:07that continues to make it harder for us to do what we're doing. And you, all of us survivors,

48:13to do the hard work of healing and rebuilding that we are trying to do. So we are in your corner.

48:18Thank you for letting us be a part of it.

48:19Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the

48:24web. You can find us at william-brannum.org and beemboldened.com. For more about the dark side

48:30of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

48:35the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Surviving Spiritual Abuse: What the Church Won’t Say | Naomi Wright | Episode 393

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