- 4 months ago
The big focus of this episode of India First is on Prime Minister Modi's statements concerning 'ghuspetiya' or infiltrators during political rallies in Bihar and Bengal.
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00:00Good evening, the Prime Minister's Clarence Cole from the ramparts of the Red Fort
00:05to deal with the threat posed by ghuspatyas or infiltrators was reiterated in two political
00:12rallies, one in pole-bound Bihar and later in Bengal. But how real is the threat of these
00:19ghuspatyas or infiltrators? Because the Prime Minister warned their changing demographic
00:24profile in India's border region. They pose a threat to cohesion in society and he insisted
00:31they will protect, as in the government insists they will protect, the rights of the people
00:37of this land. Is there a threat to the life, land and jobs of the people of this land? We explore.
00:45Prime Minister pledges war on ghuspatyas.
00:52Demographic Mission Ready.
01:14Modi tears into opposition vote-bank politics.
01:28Modi tears into opposition vote-bank politics.
01:32Opposition alleges home minister failure.
01:58Prime Minister's big India first message. The big focus on India first.
02:18So as the Prime Minister raises the threat of ghuspatyas or infiltrators, the opposition swift to launch
02:32a counter-attack saying the BJP has been in power for the past 11 years, since 2014. What has the
02:38government done to secure the borders? And why is this issue only being raised just ahead of elections?
02:45Is this then aimed to polarize? We debate.
02:49Also coming up on India first, External Affairs Minister Dr. S.J. Shankar.
02:54Fact checks Peter Navarro, former trade advisor to US President Donald Trump.
02:58China is the largest importer of Russian oil and the European Union of Russian gas.
03:04Navarro had accused India of being a laundromat of Russian oil.
03:08But then are the Americans being economical with the truth?
03:11And what's the game that the Americans are playing?
03:14We get you that story at 8.30 tonight.
03:17I'm Gaurav Savant. As always, let's get started with the headlines on India first.
03:25Defence Minister Rajnath Singh takes on Pakistan's Army Chief Aasem Muneer
03:31over the Ferrari dump truck analogy.
03:34There's Pakistan's admission of its economic failure.
03:38Trump advisor hits out at India over Russia deal, says India is a laundromat for Kremlin claims.
03:52India is now cozying up to China, not the job of a strategic partner.
03:57In the United States, Federal Bureau of Investigation raids the home of John Bolton,
04:10Trump's former national security advisor,
04:13after Bolton criticised Donald Trump's handling of ties with India
04:17and the imposition of punitive tariffs.
04:20Supreme Court modifies its earlier order on stray dogs.
04:29Strays to be released after sterilisation.
04:33Aggressive or rabied dogs to be held.
04:36Supreme Court draws the line over feeding stray dogs.
04:40Says if you want to protect those ferocious dogs, take them home.
04:43Another charge against Kerala Congress leader, a trans woman's big charge, claims he texted inappropriately.
04:58So, ahead of that big battle of Bihar, Prime Minister Narendra Modi raised the threat of Ghuspaityas or infiltrators,
05:13deliberately changing the demographic profile,
05:15insisting that his government will not permit Ghuspaityas to snatch away the rights of the people of Bihar.
05:21The NDA government will not permit that.
05:23He launched a frontal attack, not just on the RJD, but also on the Congress Party,
05:28accusing them of playing vote bank politics or appeasement politics.
05:32But this isn't the first time that he's raised the issue of the infiltrators and the threat to India's limited resources.
05:39From the ramparts of the Red Fort, on Independence Day,
05:42the Prime Minister had given a clarion call to deal with the infiltrators.
05:47The opposition, whether it's the RJD or the Trinamul Congress in Bengal or the Congress,
05:52they've accused the BJP of raising the bogey of Ghuspaityas repeatedly from 2014 to 2025,
05:59for the past 11 years, but doing little about it on ground.
06:03Prime Minister Narendra Modi makes a high-voltage pitch against illegal immigration,
06:24announcing a demographic mission to protect India's borders, identity and jobs.
06:29Declaring war on infiltrators at a rally in Bihar on Friday,
06:34the Prime Minister vowed to defend the country.
06:37In Bihar's borders, there's a demographic change in Bihar's borders,
06:42there's a demographic change in Bihar's borders.
06:47That's why the NDA government promised that the country will not be able to defend the country's borders.
07:00Calling infiltration a direct threat to Bihar's youth,
07:09the Prime Minister linked demographic change to what he called vote bank appeasement.
07:30Tearing into the opposition, Prime Minister Modi accused them of playing with national security to protect their vote banks.
07:43Opposition parties hit back hard.
08:04Congress leader B.K. Hari Prasad said if infiltration is so rampant, then Home Minister should resign.
08:11When there is a problem, the government should be involved in war.
08:41Meanwhile in Assam, Chief Minister Haimanto Bisar Sarma has drawn the battle lines,
08:56suspending Aadha registrations for most adults for one year,
09:00claiming illegal immigrants could misuse it.
09:11This decision will act as a big deterrent.
09:37Congress has questioned the BJP government's competence.
09:41As Bihar, Bengal and Assam gear up for key assembly polls, the war over identity and intrusion is only heating up.
10:08And as the election drums beat louder, the face-off is set to get fiercer.
10:14Bureau Report, India Today.
10:38It's a bogey that the government raises before elections repeatedly from 2014 to 2025.
10:44Because what's action that's been taken on ground to mitigate this threat?
10:48Joining me on India First is Mohan Kumar Mangalam, National Spokesperson of the Congress Party.
10:53Rohan Gupta represents the BJP.
10:56Amitabh Tiwari is a political analyst and a strategist and a commentator and he's been working on ground very extensively in Bihar.
11:03Dr. Vikram Singh is a security affairs analyst and a former director general of police.
11:09Rohan Gupta, Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Bihar said,
11:12we will not allow infiltrators to snatch away the rights of the people of Bihar.
11:17He then targeted the RJD and the Congress accusing them of supporting these infiltrators or ghuspaitiyas.
11:26Your government wasn't…
11:28Okay.
11:29No, my question is, you've been in power for 11 years.
11:33What have you done to address it?
11:35Absolutely, Gaurav.
11:37This is definitely joint responsibility of central government and state governments.
11:41And the state governments of border states like West Bahnaur.
11:44Before last few days, Amit Shahji clearly told the kind of cooperation which is required from the state government
11:50to ensure that infiltrators, number one, they don't enter the border and number two, they don't get the right of the citizens of India.
11:57It is required a joint effort and that's what Modiji said.
12:01In Bihar, we have said, we have seen that whether it is RJD or Congress Party, why they are opposing SIR?
12:07There was a transparent procedure by 65 black voters.
12:10They were clearly identified either they have travelled outside the state or died or they were not found.
12:16Why Congress and RJD is betting for these people?
12:19Because they somewhere, this is the vote bank politics, this is the appeasement politics.
12:22They feel that if these kind of people are there and they have the citizens of the right, it will benefit them politically.
12:27We have seen this Gaurav in Delhi, two of the Aham Admi Party MLA's, the responsible for giving proof of address to the Bangladeshis for getting Aadhaar card.
12:37So, I think unless and until there is a complete political will by all the political parties, this kind of issue cannot be completely resolved.
12:44And that's why he has called for a larger fight against the infiltrators.
12:48Sir, that's a serious charge that you're leveling on the Congress and the RJD and other opposition parties.
12:53Mohan Kumar Mangam, respond that SIR is an exercise where either bogus voters or those who are not there or infiltrators are being checked.
13:05And that is why the opposition is opposing it according to the BJP because they want the ghuspethiyas because of vote bank politics, appeasement politics.
13:15So, Gaurav, there are a couple of assertions that my good friend Rohan made that I want to counter here, which is that by no means was the process transparent.
13:26If not, the Supreme Court wouldn't be involved and then force the Election Commission to actually release the list of 65 lakh people that they have actually removed.
13:34In the objections and claims area right now, in fact, the Supreme Court has impleded political parties in the process and actually told them to go ahead with the BLAs to go and verify the 65 lakh people.
13:46You've seen a lot of independent people actually go and find some of the people who've been classified dead on that list of 65 lakh as actually still being alive and in their residence.
13:57See, the Election Commission's job is not to determine citizenship.
14:01Let's not confound this.
14:02If I may just briefly 30 seconds, sir, independent people have done so.
14:07The court also wanted to know why haven't political parties done so.
14:11How would you respond to that, sir?
14:14I'm saying now that the 65 lakh people list is out and is made public and has been released on the court's asking because the Election Commission was not doing so,
14:24the political parties will very much go to the ground and ensure that those who have been deleted and weren't supposed to are included back in the list.
14:33The follow-up question you might ask, Gaurav, is that what I was saying is that Aadhaar is again not a test of citizenship.
14:39It is very well established that Aadhaar is basically one of a resident ship, which you obtain by staying for 182 days or more in the last 12 months in this country.
14:49So now you might ask, why is the Supreme Court including Aadhaar in the list now when the people who are going back and trying to get included in this list they were taken out of in Bihar are trying to get back in?
15:01How is Aadhaar a valid document?
15:02The problem here is that the Election Commission does not get to determine citizenship.
15:08It is the foreign tribunals and the Home Ministry that has the only power to determine citizenship here.
15:14And it is a practice that is being followed for years and years.
15:18To talk about infiltration also in a flippant banner, I think, is very disingenuous of the Prime Minister.
15:23I should applaud him that he's at least come out and accepted fault of his own government that they've not been able to control infiltration.
15:30It's a very, very important topic.
15:31It shouldn't be talked about flippantly.
15:33One of the tools that has been used to do so is fencing along the border.
15:38Let's be honest, the biggest problem here is Bangladesh and immigration from Bangladesh.
15:42If you look at the progress that Congress made there, up 4,096 square kilometers of that border,
15:482,700 was fenced off by the Congress up to 2014.
15:52Where has BJP got us in 11 years?
15:543,200.
15:56So 500 kilometers of border has been fenced by the BJP in 11 years.
15:59And here are the Prime Ministers standing on a stage and talking about us actually wanting illegal immigration to happen.
16:05Sir, that's a serious charge.
16:07That's a serious charge.
16:08One, it's flippant in the manner in which they're doing it.
16:11Two, they haven't done it.
16:12Before I bring in Amitabh Tiwari and Dr. Vikram Singh, Rohan Gupta, you want to quickly respond to very serious charges that the opposition is now leveling on the government.
16:21All talk, no action.
16:22See, Gaurav, what is the core issue?
16:25Whether who will decide the citizenship or we ensure that Bangladeshis or infiltrators, they don't get the citizenship.
16:31See, this is the core issue, you know.
16:33Rather than going into nuances of who will decide citizenship, it is important that infiltrators don't get the right of Indian citizens.
16:40And that is what SIR ensured.
16:41And again, Gaurav, just to second your point, this 65 lakh people list has been given to all the opposition parties.
16:48In last 20 days, they are not able to go and go back to election commission and file a single complaint of inclusion of these people.
16:54What they are talking about.
16:55So that's what I'm saying.
16:57This is purely vote bank politics.
16:58And that's why they have created this SIR issue, the bubble of which it's got already burst in Bihar.
17:04At the end of the day, whether it is central government or state government, it should be joint responsibility that for the vote bank politics or appeasement, you don't allow these infiltrators to get inside India.
17:15That is point number one.
17:16This has to be a national effort, undoubtedly.
17:18And don't allow these infiltrators to get the other cuts, to get the rights of the citizenship.
17:21It has to be a national effort to ensure that illegals don't have access to India's finite resources that are meant for Indians.
17:28But Amitabh Tiwari, is there merit in the Prime Minister raising the issue of changing demographic profile, especially in the border belt, but even beyond, even in depth areas and the threat to jobs of Indians, land of Indians and life.
17:43Now, is that impacting states like Bengal, but also Bihar?
17:49So, clearly the Prime Minister raised this infiltration issue and talked about this demographic mission in his Red Fort address on the independence.
18:01So, it clearly means that this is one of the important aspects on which the government is working.
18:06Now, there are three steps involved in this process.
18:10One is, how do we control infiltration, seal the borders, as the other panelists were speaking about.
18:16How do we identify these illegal immigrants?
18:21NRC is one option or any other option perhaps.
18:24And what do we do after identification of these people, deportation, refugee camps, etc.
18:29So, clearly we will have to wait and see how does the government come up with specific policies with regards to this demographic mission.
18:40Now, not only in India, even across the world, whether it is U.S. or Europe, illegal infiltration or immigration is becoming a top point of the world.
18:50Because people are realizing that the illegal immigrants are utilizing the resources of the country which should otherwise have been used for the development of our countrymen.
19:01So, with the documents like Aadhaar, correct, where there has been now, we have seen a very high saturation level, whether in Assam and you have also shown in your shows in Bihar in certain districts.
19:20What happens is that…
19:20More than 100% in almost 36 or 38 districts.
19:24Yeah, these people are then able to create or get other documents and are able now to have a claim on jobs, etc.
19:35So, this is a big issue and we need to solve it, of course.
19:40Politicization will happen on this issue because it is also linked to Vote Bank.
19:44And we have to wait and see how the Election Commission of India, whose actual goal was to identify illegal immigrants in this process of SIR.
19:53I think it is a bigger issue, will be a bigger issue in Assam and Bengal rather than Bihar because Bihar is still not a border state and still it's far away from it.
20:05Oh, absolutely.
20:05But, you know, beyond borders, this is now creeping in.
20:08Dr. Vikram Singh, as someone who's dealt with the issue of ghuzpaityas at multiple levels, as a former Director General of Police, do you see it as a threat to India's security or do you look at it as a bogey that's raised before elections to polarize?
20:23Good evening, Gaurav Ji and gentlemen.
20:26It will be an understatement if I were to say that this is a bogey.
20:30Every infiltrator who has not been identified is a ticking time bomb.
20:35I would say a ticking time bomb.
20:36And this is the ground reality, not only in India, but the world over.
20:40Now, see, going to the fact, the grassroots level infiltration did not happen yesterday.
20:45It began in the year 19, early 1971, before the Bangladesh war.
20:50And then it has never ended.
20:52Not to say that leveling allegations that the center did not do this and state did not do this.
20:57Well, no border sealing or border fencing is failed to for two to seven percent.
21:02It is the coordinated action of both the center and the state, which will see that the infiltration is contained.
21:11It cannot be eradicated.
21:13But yes, you can do your very best.
21:15Even America has not been able to do fail-proof and fool-proof checking of infiltration.
21:19But what we could have done.
21:20But yes, there are those within the state governments who say in their own words,
21:24You may recall that in West Bengal, there was a call when there was trouble in Bangladesh that if there's a problem there, I'm going to welcome you.
21:32What bigger evidence would you require when the people sitting at home in India are welcoming infiltrators with open arms?
21:39My recommendation to the commission would be, Gaurabji, that first deny them all voting rights, property rights, citizenship rights,
21:46and they should not have any access to government subsidies unless you take these firm decisions.
21:52They will eat up and you will go to Nenital, you go to the Tarai area where there was not a single infiltrator.
21:58You find swarms and swarms of them in numbering in lakhs who have taken over the pristine land.
22:03The demographic profile that's changing is, you know, is that, as you rightly point out, is that a ticking bomb?
22:10And are we, are we burying our head in sand?
22:13Mohan Kumar Mangalam, it's not a current problem.
22:15Let me refer you to a report by late Lieutenant General S.K. Sinha, then Governor of Assam.
22:21And this was, I think, in November 1998, late General Sinha wrote to the center that illegal immigration poses a grave threat,
22:31both to the identity, and he was speaking about the people of Assam, and to a national security.
22:36Now, beyond that, so, the BJP was in power till 2004, the Congress or the UPA were in power from 2004 to 2014.
22:46Nothing done.
22:46I'll come to Rohan Gupta to talk about what's happened from 14 to 25, but from, on that period, sir.
22:56It was during UPA's term, actually, that the National Population Register was brought about.
23:01And the Assam issue has been one that has been burning for quite a number of years.
23:07So, it is with the context of Assam, in fact, that the changing of the demographic, and I will take it to mean the changing of the ethnic background of people there,
23:15has been an issue that has led to mass protests, that has led to enormous student protests,
23:21and the Assamese have felt that the identity itself is shrinking.
23:24So, it is after a lot of trepidation, the Assam Accords were signed, the Supreme Court upheld Article 6A of those Accords as well.
23:32And there have been detainees in Assam, in detention camps, as a result of identification.
23:38So, I think, up to 2005, IMD was used, and after that, foreign tribunals were used again.
23:44You know, Rohan said that, you know, it doesn't matter how we actually do it,
23:51but, you know, in a constitutional democracy, there are laws.
23:55And following the right law and process to whether to disenfranchise or enfranchise an individual as a citizen of India is the most important part.
24:03We have been using a particular process to do that via foreign tribunals.
24:06Maybe, if I were to take one of your fellow panelists' clarion call or warning, more seriously,
24:12maybe we need to speed up that process, expand that process.
24:15But we can't outsource that process to entities that aren't equipped to deal with it, like the Election Commission.
24:20Okay? Okay, but, you know, you spoke of the National Population Register.
24:27When you talk about protests that happened, either with the Citizenship Amendment Act, or lead with, as some said,
24:35No, no, I'm just taking it forward for the simple reason.
24:38I'm just saying that I'm talking about the protests, not about CAA, but prior to that.
24:41Yeah, sure. Sure.
24:43And when you come to the NRC, even before systems are put in place, you start seeing protests.
24:49Now, decisions have to be taken by courts of law and not by the street, but who's mobilizing the street in this country and why?
24:57Rohan Gupta.
24:57Nobody was mobilizing the street. I know what you're hinting at.
25:01The street was mobilized. The street was mobilized.
25:03I will yield to Dr. Vikram Singh's superior knowledge on that.
25:07Let me take one second there to rebut you and say that NRC would not have been a problem without CAA.
25:14The whole CAA, NRC, NPR trio is what was the problem was.
25:17Which is why the Prime Minister himself said we have no intention to bring NRC and actually contradicted the NRC.
25:23Let courts of law decide the street.
25:28But anyway, I will let Dr. Vikram Singh and you talk about the legal aspect.
25:32Rohan Gupta wants to come in.
25:33Because Rohan Gupta, I have a serious question.
25:35Because the BJP adopted a formal resolution.
25:38And why I want to take you back in history, because as a student of history, I want our country to know that the BJP adopts a resolution in 1996 in its executive committee meeting in Bhopal that there should be detention, detection, deletion, deportation.
25:57So, detection of illegal immigrants should happen, deletion of their names from votalists should happen, their deportation to Bangladesh should happen.
26:04But then when BJP is in power, what happens, sir?
26:06You've been in power for 17 years.
26:09The Vajpayee era and then Atal Bihari Vajpayee between 1998 and 2004.
26:15And then Narendra Modi from 2014 to 25 and counting.
26:18Why haven't you followed up on these three D's that you talked about in 1996, sir?
26:24See, Gaurav, partially you have answered the question when you talk about NRC, right?
26:29That is the process.
26:30Because unless and until there is a national register, you cannot have a long-term solution.
26:35But you have seen opposition parties, you know, countering the NRC.
26:38There is no logic of opposition party countering the NRC except the appeasement politics.
26:42And that's why you have seen in Assam, the chief minister clearly told that first-time voters will not get Aadha because Aadha is a source of illegal citizenship in India somewhere.
26:54We respect Supreme Court here.
26:56I am not questioning Supreme Court.
26:57They have allowed this as a proof for the existing voters.
27:00But my point here is, unless and until there is a political consensus, when you question NRC as an opposition party, what intention you are talking to the people of the country?
27:11Because you are saying that, okay, your citizens will be taken up.
27:14In the rally right now in Bihar, what Congress is telling?
27:17That BJP is taking your citizenship.
27:20And where they are telling?
27:22In the areas, their pockets, where the vote bank politics is done.
27:25So why they are misguiding the people?
27:27Whom they are telling that citizens will be taken?
27:29To the infiltrators?
27:31So this is the question of political intent, Gaurav.
27:33And that is where opposition parties are not clearly coming out and supporting it.
27:37Since you've raised a direct point about the Congress, I will get Mohan to respond to it.
27:39I want to quickly bring in Amitabh Tiwari and Dr. Vikram Singh.
27:41But Mohan, you want to quickly respond to the point raised by Rohan?
27:45Gaurav, I know you won't tolerate dog whistle politics on your show.
27:48So I am going to also ignore some of the things that Rohan is saying.
27:52And say that if the Congress and the RJD were so good at detecting infiltrators,
27:57then I am sure the BJP that has been such an expert at manipulating electoral risks could also identify them and make sure that they are deleted.
28:05They certainly pride themselves on their ground game and their booth workers more than we do on ours, right?
28:12He said that on many shows before as well.
28:14So why is he so worried?
28:15And what does he mean by vote back?
28:16I want him to spell it out.
28:18Because he said that twice or thrice.
28:20Who is our vote back, Rohan?
28:21Why don't you say it out loud?
28:22I will tell you very clearly.
28:24I am not afraid.
28:25Out of the 65 lakh people, the list which is given to Congress party and opposition parties,
28:30you have argued, you have alleged that your vote right has been taken.
28:35Now you tell me, whom are you telling that your voter right is taken?
28:387 crore, 25 lakhs eligible voters, they have got their voter right.
28:4265 lakh voter list, you have got.
28:44Out of 20 lakh people have already died.
28:47Around 32 lakh people have shifted.
28:49So whom are you talking that voter right is taken?
28:51Whose voter right is taken?
28:52So now that the opposition parties are included, BLOs are doing that job?
29:01BLOs are doing that job?
29:02But I want to bring in Amitabh Tiwari on a point that you'd raised, Mr. Tiwari.
29:05That barring Jehanabad, almost all of the 38 districts in Bihar have about 100% plus.
29:11And they go up to 120%, 125%, 121%.
29:15For example, in Purnia, in Simanchal Belt.
29:18You know, the Aadhaar saturation.
29:21Do you see this as a ghuspaitia issue that infiltrators are making inroads and getting Aadhaar?
29:26Or do you see this as a data-related discrepancy as has been pointed out by some analysts, sir?
29:33I would say in Bihar, this could largely be a data-related discrepancy.
29:39Correct.
29:39Because it's still far away from the border.
29:41Assam, West Bengal, we don't have the figures.
29:44So we'll have to wait and see.
29:45Here, but the BJP or the ECI will have to walk the talk.
29:49If they're talking about identification of illegal citizens as voters in this SIR exercise,
29:55we do not have that number yet.
29:57And as Vikram, sir, has mentioned, it's a ticking bomb.
30:00So we need that number.
30:01Because we need that number.
30:03Because this SIR exercise will also be replicated in West Bengal and Assam, the border districts,
30:09wherein the issue could be much bigger.
30:11Even more volatile.
30:12Yeah, the point is that this SIR exercise, again, has identified or deleted some 65 lakh voters.
30:21The names should have been published earlier, as the Supreme Court mentioned.
30:24It has been published now.
30:25But even today, the Supreme Court has taken all political parties to task that what are the women doing?
30:31Even after almost a week of these names getting published, there is not a single complaint or written statement from the BLAs of opposition parties,
30:45helping the Elysian Commission of India point out deficiencies, rather than holding them in press conference, etc.
30:50Because unless the opposition is able to prove that there are significant errors in this 65 lakh deletions,
30:59then the whole premise that the ECI is colluding with the BJP or the allegation and deleting names to help them win elections does not stand.
31:09So, they will have to come out and point out significant errors.
31:12I think Mohan, that point stands taken.
31:15I want to bring in Dr. Vikram Singh.
31:17Because the government in the past, ministers have used words like termites, ghuspaitiyas.
31:23You've said it's a ticking time bomb.
31:24And yet, these elements manage to get Aadhaar card, voter eye card.
31:29They end up, you know, buying land or getting married to local girls and then acquiring land in some states.
31:35So, and exploiting India's finite resources.
31:38Sir, do we see more words ahead of elections than action on ground?
31:42What are the challenges and what's the solution in your appreciation?
31:45Kauravji, it's going to be more acrimonious by the day.
31:50And I'm extremely pained to say that we only seem to be indulging in rhetoric allegations and counter-allegations.
31:57Little realizing that national security is non-negotiable, I wish there is action on the ground.
32:02To your question that there is so much of facilitation of these undesirable elements by special interest groups from the mafia
32:09to facilitate their identity papers, to facilitate them to learn the local language, to settle them down,
32:14and give them a vocation in business so that they're able to mix in the crowd and make a decent level of work for themselves
32:21and become a committed vote bank so that every district, sensitive district, has about 25,000, 30,000 captive voters
32:27so that translates into one assembly seat.
32:30And that is where the problem arises.
32:31If you're really serious about it, Kauravji, I wish you take the bull by the four horn and address the issue and see to it
32:37that they are defranchised and if we're not able to deport them, which will be very difficult,
32:40we can at least deny them the voting rights, the citizenship rights, as also the right to employment.
32:47I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
32:50To all my guests, many thanks for joining me because this is a story we'll be tracking very closely.
32:54From the ramparts of the Red Fort, Prime Minister Narendra Modi made that clarion call.
32:58Will it be followed up by action on ground is something we'll watch.
33:02There's a big story.
33:03There's breaking news that's coming in.
33:05And this is a big story on Atmanirvart Bharat in defense.
33:16The big boost to Atmanirvart Bharat in defense,
33:20especially on the aspect of the fifth generation aircraft,
33:24the advanced medium combat aircraft plans, the FGFA.
33:29Today, India has decided to join hands with France for the fighter jet engine.
33:35And this is a government to government deal is what we are being told to jointly design and manufacture
33:41the Saffran fighter jet engine.
33:44And this will be that new 120 kilonewton power engine for the advanced medium combat aircraft
33:50that New Delhi has been aspiring for to fly by 2035.
33:56India's very own fifth generation fighter jet will be flying on made in India with French collaboration Saffran engines.
34:05This has been confirmed by Defense Minister Rajnath Singh.
34:10He said it will be the French aircraft company Saffran that will work with India.
34:17It will be a part of the make in India process.
34:20So some bits of technology will come in and then a lot of it depends on the kind of absorption of that technology in India.
34:28But then the engines will be made in India.
34:31Listen in to the defense minister.
34:33We are now working in India as a fifth generation aircraft.
34:38As we are progressing with the engine of India, we now have built the engine of aircraft moving to India.
34:45We have since the French company in India have been starting to do the work of making of aircraft in India.
34:51We are also adjusting to the liner of goods and products,
34:52as we want to plan a sustainable growth environment.
34:56And India today's Shivani Sharma and Sandeep Unnithan join me for more on this.
35:24And Sandeep, big in more ways than one.
35:28So let's first talk about how significant is this as part of Make in India project for the fifth generation fighter jet engine to be made in India with Safran France and not the American engines.
35:41I'll just come to the signal to the United States of America in just a moment.
35:45But Sandeep, on the Safran engines to be made in India.
35:48Well, Gaurav, huge announcement coming from Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, and he's laid to rest this contest that was on for several months now, where there were three frontrunners really for India's fifth generation fighter aircraft jet engine co-development partners, basically.
36:05One was, of course, GE of the United States, the other was Rolls-Royce of the UK, and, of course, Safran of France.
36:13Now, what India has really done with this statement, Gaurav, it's a very significant statement.
36:17We have actually chosen a partner for the next two or three decades, which is very, very critical.
36:24And the fact is that we have chosen to go with a French co-development engine partner for the fifth generation fighter aircraft, the AMCA, which will enter service in a decade from now.
36:34That is 2035. And it is a very, very important project, Gaurav.
36:39It's a very prestigious project. Something like 61,000 crores is what the government hopes to spend on this project.
36:45So, it's a very significant announcement. And the fact is that India has decided to go with France and not the US and the UK for the co-development of this jet engine.
36:55Stay with me, Sandeep, as I bring in Shivani Sharma for more on this.
36:58Your sources were telling you this for quite some time now. We discussed this mid-May, June, that we are moving forward in the direction of Safran for the make in India for FGFA fighter jet engines, the fifth generation fighter jet engines.
37:16What tipped the scales in favor of France and not Rolls-Royce of the United Kingdom and not the general electric engines from United States of America?
37:26See, Gaurav, the focus for India has been on Atmanir Bharta, self-reliance.
37:33And this started happening after 2020, the Galwan Clash.
37:36And since then, we've seen hundreds of items have been there on non-import list.
37:42But when it comes to engines, India has been working on its own engine.
37:46But now, not only depending on United States, it's working with a number of other partners.
37:52And France happens to be one of the most important partners because my sources told me this way back in the month of May, right after Operation Sindur, Gaurav, that India has already started discussing with France's Safran for the engine for AMCA.
38:09The AMCA, which happens to be India's very own.
38:12It's a homegrown fifth generation fighter.
38:15So, on AMCA's engine, India is working with Safran.
38:20And while 2029, Gaurav, at least four prototypes are planned.
38:25So, that's how India is now collaborating with other partners, not only depending on United States.
38:30And for that matter, when the additional orders for 97 Tejas aircraft have already been cleared by the government,
38:36the additional engines can be taken from United States, but many other countries.
38:41And in fact, France is being the most important, reliable partner for those engines also.
38:49So, now…
38:49It's interesting you pointed out that France has been a reliable partner.
38:53Sandeep, if I take you back to what you and I were reporting as reporters initially on the defence beat,
39:011998 Pokhran test and then sanctions and our entire Seeking and Sea Harrier flight was grounded
39:07because the Americans or the West wasn't giving us spares, except France said,
39:12take what you want, it's in your interest.
39:15That partnership from the Mirages to the Rafals, now to the Safran jet engines,
39:20does that relationship only continue to grow from strength to strength?
39:25Absolutely, Gaurav.
39:26You know, while you can argue that the defence ministry has made the choice based on the best available
39:32of the three offers that Safran has offered 100% transfer of technology and full IP ownership for India
39:40and for, you know, for the defence ministry to own the IP of the engine,
39:45which means that we are completely self-sufficient on the engine.
39:48There is also a very important diplomatic angle to all of this, as you highlighted.
39:53In the past, you know, France has always shown its independence.
39:56It has never attached any strings to Indian defence hardware.
40:01And that is the reason when we are talking about the kind of language that is coming out of Washington,
40:05D.C. right now, Gaurav, the kind of words that are being used for India,
40:09you know, words like sanctions and tariffs are being freely thrown around without realising
40:15the kind of damage that this is being done to the India-U.S. defence partnership.
40:20We've always been treading on eggshells with the United States.
40:23And in 2025, I sense, Gaurav, that, you know, South Bloc's worst fears have come true
40:29when it comes to the relationship with the United States.
40:32And which is why Defence Minister Rajnath Singh's statement today is such a big, big thing,
40:37that they have chosen to go ahead with France.
40:40They've chosen to go ahead with a French jet engine manufacturer to co-partner for truly
40:46what they believe is going to be an Atmanirvara or an indigenous jet engine, Gaurav.
40:50So, it's a very, very big statement of faith and trust in a trusted strategic partner,
40:57which New Delhi believes is unlikely to stray away from this beaten path that we've seen
41:02over the last 25, 26 years, especially since Pokhran 2.
41:06So, it is actually not just…
41:07Oh, indeed, because…
41:08Absolutely.
41:09I mean, even if we were to talk about the light combat aircraft,
41:12its development from the 1980s, the moment 1998 Pokhran tests happened,
41:17the supply of GE404 engines stopped for the light combat aircraft
41:21and that project could not take off, it could not soar for decades.
41:26The relationship improved, the jet engines started coming,
41:29but again, around 2020 is the end of Biden era and the beginning of Trump 2.0,
41:36the supply of GE404 engines delayed again in some instances by two years.
41:41They may blame supply chain problems, but is it just supply chain problems
41:45or is there another signal that the United States was trying to send to India, Sandeep?
41:50Well, absolutely, Gaurav.
41:51You know, and the last thing you want is, you know,
41:55for your fighter jet engines to face supply chain issues
41:58of the kind that we've been hearing over the last couple of years.
42:02You know, fighter jets are literally, you know, the last line of defense for a country
42:06and we have to choose very carefully, which is why in the past,
42:11New Delhi has not bought any fighter jets from the Americans,
42:14but somehow we seem to have gone ahead with a fighter jet engine deal with the United States,
42:21placing our most important indigenous fighter jet program
42:27in the hands of American whims and fancies, which is what has been exposed really.
42:33So the entire Mach 1 and Mach 2, sadly, today, they're powered by American jet engines.
42:39There doesn't seem to be a way out of this conundrum, Gaurav,
42:42unless we can sufficiently indigenize large parts of it,
42:46create a lot of that supply chain within India to protect us from future
42:50so-called supply chain issues that might arise.
42:53Oh, absolutely.
42:54As it may be, in the future, the government very clearly indicated
42:59that they want to go ahead with France and, of course, the indigenous jet engine, Gaurav.
43:05You know, you're absolutely right.
43:06Usually, fighter jets are the last line of defense,
43:09except with the Narendra Modi government, both in 2019 and in 2025,
43:14they've been the first line of offense, whether it's in Balakot or in Operation Sindhu.
43:19Sandeep, for the moment, many thanks for joining me.
43:22I now want to move on to another big story.
43:26India has fact-checked the United States of America on the issue of Russian oil.
43:31Peter Navarro, former trade advisor to US President Donald Trump,
43:34he accused India of being a laundromat for Russian oil.
43:39The false charges included India fueling the Russian war.
43:43But facts on ground are very different.
43:45And without naming any of the US officials, whether it's their Treasury Secretary
43:50or their former trade advisor to the American President,
43:54External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jai Shankar called a spade a spade.
43:57China is the biggest importer of Russian oil.
44:00European Union is the biggest importer of Russian gas.
44:02And the United States continues to import fertilizers, palladium and uranium.
44:09In fact, according to reports that are coming in,
44:11United States trade with Russia.
44:12Modest 20% as President Vladimir Putin recently said in Alaska.
44:18According to these reports, stands at a whopping $3.3 billion in 2024.
44:26But that additional 25% tariff is being imposed on India.
44:30Quite honestly, we are very perplexed at the logic of the argument that you had.
44:37E.M. Jai Shankar, speaking from Moscow, called the US tariffs for Indian import of Russian oil perplexing.
44:45Speaking from Moscow alongside Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov,
44:49Jai Shankar pointed out that the US initially had encouraged India to do the same.
44:53We are not the biggest purchasers of Russian oil.
44:59That is China.
45:01We are not the biggest purchasers of Russian LNG.
45:05I'm not sure, but I think that is the European Union.
45:09We are not the country which has the biggest trade surge with Russia after 2022.
45:15I think there are some countries to the south.
45:19We are a country where actually the Americans said for the last few years
45:26that we should do everything to stabilize the world energy markets, including buying oil from Russia.
45:33The statement comes amid Jai Shankar's visit to Moscow to strengthen bilateral relations between India and Russia.
45:41Meanwhile, US Trade Advisor Peter Navarro accused India of being the laundromat of Kremlin,
45:47closing up to China and perpetuating the Russia-Ukraine conflict.
45:51India doesn't appear to want to recognize its role in the bloodshed.
46:02It simply doesn't.
46:03It's cozying up the Xi Jinping is what it's doing.
46:07It's not acting.
46:09And by the way, I wrote that article in the FD just to deal with the propaganda of the Indian government
46:16to make people want to feel sorry to them.
46:19Oh, they need the oil.
46:20They don't need the oil.
46:22It's a refining profiteering scheme.
46:24It's a laundromat for the Kremlin.
46:27But New Delhi refuses to cow down to the US tariff blackmail.
46:31Jai Shankar's Moscow trip, including talks with Putin,
46:34signals India's intent to keep strong ties with Russia despite the US displeasure.
46:41We reaffirmed our shared ambition to expand bilateral trade in a balanced and sustainable manner,
46:47including by increasing India's exports to Russia.
46:52This requires swiftly addressing non-tariff barriers and regulatory impediments.
46:58Enhancing Indian exports to Russia and sectors like pharmaceuticals, agriculture and textiles
47:04will certainly help to correct the current imbalance.
47:08Even China is backing India.
47:10The United States has long been benefited greatly from free trade,
47:17but now it is using tariffs as a bargaining chip to demand exorbitant prices from various countries.
47:29The United States has imposed tariffs of up to 50% on India and is even threatened for more.
47:39China firmly opposes it.
47:42In the face of such acts, silence or compromise only emboldens the bully.
47:49India is clear, it won't let trade wars or pressure derail its energy security or strategic partnerships.
47:57Bureau Report, India Today.
48:07Officers of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the United States of America
48:11have searched the residence of former National Security Advisor of the United States of America
48:16in the Trump era itself.
48:19John Bolton and that raid and details are now filtering out in public domain.
48:24Now, sources are familiar with the matter,
48:26say that the search was carried out by the FBI
48:29is related to allegations that Bolton is in possession of classified records.
48:37Bolton has been making rounds of several television channels,
48:40including India Today,
48:42criticizing Donald Trump for his tariff policy against India.
48:46But he's not the only one.
48:47There are several people,
48:49intellectuals in the United States of America,
48:52who've said that both India and America have invested more than 25 years in this relationship.
48:58And is it just because of his ego,
49:00President Trump is throwing it all out of the window?
49:02I quickly want to cut across to India Today's Foreign Affairs editor,
49:05Geeta Mohan,
49:06who joins us with the latest on the story.
49:08Geeta,
49:09FBI raid on a former National Security Advisor of the United States of America.
49:14I know John Bolton is not best of friends with Trump.
49:17Trump really doesn't like him.
49:18But what prompted this?
49:20Well,
49:21the fact that Donald Trump has just spoken and in a press gaggle,
49:25when asked about John Bolton,
49:27he said,
49:27I don't know much about it,
49:29but he could be a very unpatriotic guy.
49:32We'll find out.
49:32That just goes to show the statement that was made earlier by investigating authorities,
49:36he's saying that it is to do with national security,
49:39given that he could be in possession of classified documents,
49:43like you said.
49:44But again,
49:45some of the investigators are saying that these are investigations that were being carried out,
49:50not now,
49:50but even during Joe Biden's time.
49:53He did have,
49:53he does possess a lot of information,
49:57whether they're in the form of documents or not,
49:59Gaurav will have to wait and see,
50:01because his house has been raided.
50:02No details of whether they could actually find documents.
50:06We do not have details of whether he was at the residence during,
50:10at the time of the raid,
50:11because just half an hour from the raid,
50:13he was actually posting on,
50:16on social media,
50:17on his social media account of X.
50:21So clearly,
50:22we do not know exactly what was happening with,
50:24in terms of whether he was present or not.
50:26But this is serious.
50:27This is the former national security advisor of the United States of America,
50:31Trump's key aide at some point in time,
50:34now,
50:35Bette Noir.
50:36So,
50:36it is political.
50:38Whether it's political vendetta,
50:39or there's truth to the matter,
50:40we'll have to wait and see.
50:41FBI Director,
50:42Cash Patel,
50:43has already tweeted out,
50:44saying that,
50:45nobody is above law.
50:48Indeed.
50:48But,
50:49are there those who are calling this a witch hunt?
50:51Because,
50:52Donald Trump increasingly,
50:54is facing criticism,
50:57for his policies,
50:58and especially,
50:59the additional 25% tariff,
51:03that,
51:03Caroline Levitt,
51:04described as sanctions,
51:06on India.
51:07The kind of words they're using,
51:09Peter Navarro saying,
51:10you know,
51:10New Delhi is a laundromat,
51:12for Russia,
51:13for Kremlin.
51:14This kind of terminology,
51:15that's being used.
51:16Trump himself calling India,
51:17a dead economy,
51:19and America says,
51:19what are these people up to?
51:21They're throwing,
51:2125 years of investment,
51:23in a relationship,
51:24down the drain.
51:26Well,
51:26it could very well,
51:27be seen as a,
51:28political witch hunt.
51:30Why?
51:30It's because of the kind of statements,
51:32he's made,
51:33like you said,
51:34Gaurav,
51:34not just to,
51:35various networks,
51:36across the United States of America,
51:37but to India today as well,
51:39where he's actually come out,
51:40and criticized,
51:41the Trump administration,
51:42not only about,
51:44what Trump is doing,
51:45back home,
51:46but yes,
51:47his policies,
51:47foreign policy,
51:48of which John Bolton,
51:50was a key,
51:51key part,
51:51during Trump 1.0,
51:53and now he does see,
51:54that completely unravel,
51:56in front of his eyes,
51:57so he has been,
51:58a very strong critic,
51:59of Trump's policies,
52:02and that certainly,
52:02has invited,
52:03Trump's wrath.
52:04Keep tracking that story,
52:05Geetha,
52:05I will come back to you.
52:06From business success,
52:08to financial ruin,
52:09a businessman in Mumbai,
52:11has lost,
52:13more than,
52:1312 crore rupees,
52:15to online betting,
52:17now this betting app,
52:18is under the ED scanner,
52:20the victim,
52:20told the authorities,
52:22that he deposited,
52:2327 crore rupees,
52:25but was blocked,
52:26when he tried,
52:27to withdraw that money,
52:29the complainant has said,
52:30that,
52:31he tried to withdraw,
52:32some money,
52:33and he was blocked,
52:34and this has triggered,
52:35raids across,
52:368 cities,
52:37110 crore rupees,
52:39now stand frozen,
52:40the enforcement,
52:40directorate believes,
52:42this app,
52:42and similar apps,
52:44siphoned off,
52:44more than,
52:453000 crore rupees,
52:47from Indian users,
52:49so as the centre,
52:49gears up,
52:50to implement,
52:50the new online gaming,
52:52law,
52:52banning such promotions,
52:54we get you,
52:55this India Today exclusive,
52:56it's a cautionary tale,
52:58how betting apps,
53:00ruin lives.
53:01From business success,
53:07to financial ruin,
53:09a Mumbai businessman,
53:10has lost over 12 crore rupees,
53:12to an online betting platform,
53:14called Parimatch,
53:15a case that is now,
53:16under the ED scanner,
53:18it started in 2021,
53:20with a Facebook ad,
53:22a glamorous celeb,
53:23and a promise of high returns,
53:25a businessman,
53:26struggling with post-Covid losses,
53:28clicked on an ad,
53:29for Parimatch,
53:30what began as a game,
53:33turned into a nightmare.
53:56He deposited 27 crores,
53:58over 3 years,
53:59got back 15 crores,
54:01he lost 12.22 crores,
54:04tried withdrawing it,
54:05and got no response.
54:06As a discussion,
54:13he did not know,
54:14he died,
54:14as a result.
54:15He was a 25 crores,
54:17deposit,
54:18and in his case,
54:20he was cheating,
54:22and he was cheating.
54:22He was cheating,
54:22and was here,
54:23the proposal was wrong,
54:24he reported 23 crores,
54:25and has said enough,
54:26and that he did not know,
54:28until the event,
54:28he had some details,
54:29I told you that in Mumbai, in India, there are a lot of people in Mumbai who are not coming in front of India.
54:41I have also given the details of ED or cyber sales.
54:49With several celebs having promoted betting apps, the ED has questioned over a dozen actors and influencers.
54:55In the Mahadev case, stars like Ranbir Kapoor, Shraddha Kapoor, Kapil Sharma and others were summoned.
55:02The centres now passed the online gaming bill which bans all celebrity endorsements, ads and sponsorships.
55:09Union Minister Ashwini Vaishnav also had called out for these apps for destroying middle class lives.
55:17Online money game which is almost spreading like drugs in this society.
55:22It's a menace, it's something which is very harmful for the society.
55:27That's why it was very important to bring a very strict action against the online money game.
55:36From a thriving businessman to a broken man in debt, this is a cautionary tale.
55:41As Indians crack down on online betting, the big question remains, how many more victims are still in the shadows?
55:47With Daveesh Singh, Bureau Report, India Today.
55:53We'll continue to get you more on this very alarming story but that is all I have for you on India First this evening.
55:59Many thanks for watching.
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