Unmasking the New Apostolic Reformation: Spiritualism vs the Gospel | Laura Lynn Tyler Thompson - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John Collins and Laura-Lynn Tyler Thompson sit down for a deeply personal and eye-opening conversation about the history and dangers of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Together, they trace its roots back to William Branham, the Latter Rain revival, and post-war healing movements, explaining how elitism, fresh revelations, political entanglements, and celebrity worship transformed parts of modern Christianity. Laura-Lynn shares her own experiences in NAR-influenced circles, the harm caused by spiritual abuse and false leaders, and the hope she found by returning to the Bible. This candid discussion shines a light on practices such as grave soaking, dominionist teachings, and manipulative use of “touch not God’s anointed,” offering encouragement to those seeking a healthy, Scripture-centered faith.  00:00 Introduction   00:31 What Is the New Apostolic Reformation?   03:16 Laura-Lynn’s Personal Journey out of NAR Circles   05:32 Early Roots: Latter Rain, William Branham, and the Church Growth Movement   08:11 Music, Emotion, and the Psychology of Worship   13:11 Character Failures of Celebrity Worship Leaders   17:01 From Gospel Simplicity to Hierarchical Apostles and Prophets   20:22 Politics, Power, and the Flip from Helping Sinners to Hating Them   29:36 Branham’s Doctrines, Spiritualism, and Cross-Pollination of Ideas   39:00 Paul’s Warning in Colossians about False “Mysteries” and Angelic Visions   46:01 Brainwashing, Positive Confession, and the Legacy of the Healing Revivals   55:04 Reprogramming with Scripture and Returning to the Bible Alone   1:02:18 Health, Trauma, and the Cost of False Teaching   1:06:01 Final Warnings: How to Recognize NAR Churches    ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Laura Lynn Tyler-Thompson,

00:00:47the host of Laura Lynn Live.

00:00:50Laura Lynn, it's good to be back and to talk about all things NAR, or New Apostolic Reformation.

00:00:56We've been diving deeply into the history behind what developed into the New Apostolic Reformation,

00:01:03but I've had, just recently, I've had a few emails asking, what is this thing?

00:01:08What is this NAR you talk about, N-A-R?

00:01:11We had some comments in the comment feeds.

00:01:13I'm sure that you're getting them, too.

00:01:15And I thought it might be good just to pause for a second and have a podcast, or maybe

00:01:21two, talking about what is the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:01:26We have had people, in fact, I've had ministers who, one of them I talked to on the phone,

00:01:31and had no idea that he was in the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:01:35And his church would have been, probably, from my opinion, it would have been somewhat benign.

00:01:42There wasn't anything, any real red flags.

00:01:45But yet, he's part of this broader network of the New Apostolic Reformation.

00:01:49Well, what is this?

00:01:50I have had recent conversations with various people who are doing similar podcasts like

00:01:57mine, and two of them recently, just this week, we were talking through some of the leaders

00:02:05in the New Apostolic Reformation will fully declare that there is no such thing.

00:02:12They deny and reject the idea that there is a New Apostolic Reformation.

00:02:16Some of them are, you know, behind closed doors.

00:02:19They're admitting it, and in public, they're denying it.

00:02:22What is it?

00:02:23So, I thought maybe we could just take a few minutes and talk about that.

00:02:26Well, I want to really appreciate that, John, because this is hitting me, you know, right

00:02:31to the depths of my soul.

00:02:34And ever since I met you, I've been a little bit discombobulated because you gave me some

00:02:42information that I didn't understand or have before.

00:02:45So, I've been sorting out my history, the church I grew up in, which I have to say, I think

00:02:54that they separated from William Branham, but they did, they had indeed had relationship.

00:03:00And I think that they went different.

00:03:03However, we still had the, thou shalt not touch God's anointed.

00:03:07We still had a lot of what I would say would be cult-like things in it.

00:03:14And yet, I would say that Reg Lazell, the leader that went to 1948 Revival, I believe that he

00:03:24loved the Lord, even though he was a very stern man.

00:03:27You couldn't see the love, you know, a nice loving pastor.

00:03:31That was not him.

00:03:32People revered him and feared him.

00:03:36And ultimately, he turned that church over to a woman named Maureen Gilardi, who eventually

00:03:43fell in sexual sin.

00:03:46And it, it marked my entire growing up years.

00:03:53Then to find out about NAR, um, the people that I've been running with for the last several

00:04:00years are NAR and they're not, they're not very happy with me.

00:04:05They're not happy that I pointed out some of these things.

00:04:08And when I've called into question some of the teachings of Bethel, one guy won't really

00:04:14talk to me anymore.

00:04:15A good friend, a pastor of a well-known church.

00:04:19He won't talk to me because I've even brought this up and, and brought it to light and maybe

00:04:26criticized some things that have happened.

00:04:28So we're all wrestling, like you are leading us into a new era of understanding, John, and

00:04:36we appreciate you.

00:04:38I don't have your knowledge.

00:04:39So I sometimes find myself going, well, just something's wrong, you know, let's go over

00:04:45it again.

00:04:46Um, so I would love if you would kind of go to the beginnings and why this is a problem.

00:04:52I mean, I do know at the very, uh, core of things might be some real erroneous stuff.

00:04:58Like about Joel's army and last day's apostleship and being special, um, and having some rights

00:05:05and privileges that, uh, an elitism perhaps that I see, I see in the attitudes of some

00:05:12people, but some of the people that I might say now are NAR, um, they, they would say yes,

00:05:21but, but then they would say, but I don't believe in that other stuff.

00:05:24So there is a little bit of, everyone's a bit confused about it all right now.

00:05:28Absolutely.

00:05:29And there's a lot of confusion and I am by no means an expert.

00:05:33I just have wildly, I connected all of this that we're talking about today to my research

00:05:40through, I was, I was digging into John Wember and that's really what opened up all of the

00:05:45doors to this.

00:05:46Um, there was a book that I read, I was recommended by a friend called the new apostolic reformation,

00:05:52the history of a modern charismatic movement by John Weaver.

00:05:57And if you want to know what the NAR is and understand kind of how it pieces together minus

00:06:04all of the history that I had that probably Weaver and others did not have, um, you can get

00:06:10a really good picture of what, what it means to be NAR.

00:06:13There are, like I said, many ministers who are in the movement.

00:06:18They have no idea that they're connected to it.

00:06:21And the new apostolic reformation itself really predates what the historians say was the beginnings

00:06:30or origins.

00:06:30And I think this book by Weaver kind of summarizes that a good bit.

00:06:36It was the, either the late eighties or the early nineties, I think it was the late eighties

00:06:41that C. Peter Wagner declared and named the new apostolic reformation.

00:06:47And because he gave it the name, there are some people who say that he's the father or

00:06:52the founder of the new apostolic reformation, but he was really just describing a movement

00:06:57that already existed.

00:07:00And this movement existed because of an elaborate network of different apostolic groups that

00:07:07were all somewhat different than each other, had different doctrines, different beliefs.

00:07:12Some of them even believe different variations in the Godhead, but they're all networked

00:07:18together in this collaborative effort that is loosely connected, yet at the same time,

00:07:25vastly different from each other.

00:07:26So he was trying to put into words what this meant.

00:07:30And Wagner and Wimber were part of what was known as the church growth movement.

00:07:37They wanted to grow these megachurches, and they thought that this was a way to convert

00:07:42people to the kingdom of God.

00:07:44And that kingdom of God, I think, is key.

00:07:48If you can understand the idea of the kingdom that was being pushed.

00:07:53And Wagner and Wimber both kind of separated a little bit on their idea of what is kingdom

00:07:59theology, but understand the difference between that and what has been developing for decades

00:08:06through mainstream Christianity.

00:08:08You can kind of see that this was shifting into a direction that was new, exciting, entertaining,

00:08:15wildly good music.

00:08:18It was a form of worship that if you go to a mainstream church after having been in one

00:08:24of these movements, it feels cold and stale.

00:08:28And it feels as though you're not in such an emotional state of being a state of mind that you are in

00:08:38the New Apostolic Reformation churches.

00:08:40The reason for this is you're developing this entertainment hype in your mind that is focused

00:08:48on the entertainment itself, and that state of mind is actually a psychological effect

00:08:54from the churches, not so much a gospel effect from the churches.

00:08:59But where it gets critical to understand is the leaders promote it and push it as though

00:09:04this entertainment form of worship is also part of the gospel.

00:09:09And we can get into it deeper in this podcast, but there are different variations of what this

00:09:13means to different groups in the apostolic networks.

00:09:17I want to say LaZelle was more focused on the music worship.

00:09:21You had different groups that are focused on the healing and so many different varieties

00:09:26and flavors.

00:09:27It's like a Heinz 57 foundation of a religion.

00:09:30Well, that's such an interesting way to put it for sure.

00:09:35I grew up in that music.

00:09:38We had a hundred person choir every Sunday night.

00:09:43They marched in from the back.

00:09:46I have to say I liked it.

00:09:49It was epic.

00:09:51We had a guy named Dan Burr and he would sing, if it wasn't for the lighthouse, where would

00:09:58this ship be?

00:09:59And there wasn't a dry eye in the house most Sunday nights when he'd sing it.

00:10:04So it had its place.

00:10:05I think what I feel now, John, is that translated later into epic places like Bethel worship and

00:10:18Hosanna stuff.

00:10:20And then when you hear that some of the key players had been involved in sexual misconduct

00:10:26and that the purity of God's holiness and God's righteousness was not there.

00:10:35And in fact, that happened at Glad Tidings too.

00:10:38The pastor that was a lesbian later revealed was the pastor where these incredible worship

00:10:51times were being had.

00:10:53And I can only say that I saw kind of like what happens with Sean Foyt, who I had a problem

00:11:01with recently.

00:11:04I don't think he has good character, not Christ-like character.

00:11:08And he gaslit the sinners.

00:11:10And recently, Charlie Kirk has been murdered by someone from the trans community in that

00:11:19he was dating a trans person.

00:11:23And I was not happy with Sean Foyt putting out an ex post, basically mocking trans people

00:11:34and saying they should all be in mental institutions.

00:11:36And nobody will say that we don't think that they struggle with mental health issues, but

00:11:43mockery, that's a different level.

00:11:46So when Sean Foyt brings worship in such a way that this is like we give him a pass for

00:11:57bad behavior, for lying at the border, for mistreating people, for spiritual abuse, for being what

00:12:03is many of the people that have hung out with him say he's an absolute liar, well, then I'm

00:12:10sad because he doesn't have the character to back up this amazing sound that comes out of

00:12:15his mouth.

00:12:16So let's put ourselves in God's shoes.

00:12:21It's not possible.

00:12:22Let's be the voice of God like Joni Lamb.

00:12:25Okay.

00:12:26No.

00:12:26Now, what I'm saying is God looks down from heaven on everything, John, and he sees a man's

00:12:33heart who is kind of lacking in character, but he can sing and he can bring the band together

00:12:40and thousands of people gather and he meets many of them there.

00:12:46And the thing about God is he's more into it because he will bless the wheat even as the

00:12:55tares are growing up in the midst of it, if I could put it that way, like the parable that

00:13:02Jesus spoke.

00:13:02He will bless the wheat.

00:13:04He will grow the wheat even though this leader is false.

00:13:10And he helped us for as long as possible when I was growing up to feel the presence of the

00:13:17Lord because I did.

00:13:18I felt the Lord or what I thought was the Lord.

00:13:22And today, I love worship by myself, but I recently went to a couple of different bigger churches

00:13:33and they're all dark, right?

00:13:38Everyone's in the dark and fortunately no smoke machines or anything, but the worshipers,

00:13:45they're very professional.

00:13:46They're very good.

00:13:48And I find I now don't honor that same sound.

00:13:54And so that is sad to me because I don't trust who's behind it.

00:13:59So what happened was in this last church that I went to, everyone on stage in Canada, like

00:14:08it's a Canadian church and someone had invited me and said, oh, there's this really cool church

00:14:13come.

00:14:14Well, they all speak Australian, like Australian accents.

00:14:19I don't think that's a language, but I don't know.

00:14:22They sound Australian.

00:14:23And I'm like, why do they all sound Australian?

00:14:25And I was like, this is a plant.

00:14:28This is a church plant from Australian group.

00:14:30What like from, you know, Hosanna or, you know, whatever it is that's over there in Australia.

00:14:36And, and it was, and then I went, oh, it's like professional church.

00:14:42It's like professional worship.

00:14:44We know, we know this, um, we know the formula.

00:14:48So let's set up churches everywhere and we have a good sound and a pastor that has a unique

00:14:55voice because he's speaking like he's Australian.

00:14:57And we make a professional sound that, uh, that is now different than what I think the

00:15:06real church is.

00:15:08And I think now I don't trust it so much.

00:15:12And I, but I do like music.

00:15:14I think that God loves music, but, um, worshiping in spirit and in truth, that's also very important.

00:15:23There's a lot to unpack there.

00:15:24So I love music too.

00:15:26If you can't tell by my office here, I play music.

00:15:29I have played music in churches for big churches, small churches in the cult.

00:15:35Obviously after we left, I played some in, in the mainstream churches, but I get exactly

00:15:42what you're saying because I felt it too.

00:15:45And to some extent, I still feel it.

00:15:47One of the things that happens when you're in this type of movement and you escape as your

00:15:54psychologically coming to terms with the fact that something was wrong.

00:15:58I can't really put my finger on what it was.

00:16:00Something was wrong.

00:16:02Something was off because we see leadership that is falling left and right.

00:16:06We see that the, this elitism that was brewing in this movement was creating people who were

00:16:13elitists and you feel something's wrong, but you really can't place your finger on what it is.

00:16:18So for me, one of the, the first thing that I did is I started reading the Bible over and

00:16:23over and over and over again, trying to wash out all of the false theology that I had.

00:16:30And when you do this, there is a thing that happens that it's hard to explain unless you

00:16:36actually go through it.

00:16:37You start to read and understand that there are different voices in the Bible.

00:16:42When you're reading one of the letters from Paul and you're reading a letter, you know,

00:16:47from another person or a book from another person, you get these voices and personalities

00:16:52and you start to see that this is a broader thing.

00:16:55This is a movement that is not just instantaneously aligned in doctrine, which is kind of what they

00:17:03teach in the NAR churches.

00:17:05This is a movement that is growing and developing over time into, you know, from ancient Judaism

00:17:10and to Christianity.

00:17:12And then there's this period of time after this where the church is trying to figure things

00:17:16out.

00:17:16Where do we go?

00:17:17How do we live?

00:17:18What do we become?

00:17:19And if you read just the gospels, you find that Christianity, as it was created from its

00:17:30inception, has been flipped upside down in the new churches that we have today in the new

00:17:37apostolic reformation.

00:17:38Jesus loved the sinner.

00:17:39He would sit down with the prostitute.

00:17:42You're mentioning sexual sins.

00:17:44Well, he's sitting down with people who are involved in this.

00:17:47So it isn't so much that we have to hate the sinner or even be disgusted at the sinner.

00:17:52Jesus is sitting with them and he's teaching others to do the same.

00:17:56But there's a key difference.

00:17:59The hierarchy that existed in the early Christian church, even whenever the apostles were on the

00:18:08face of the planet, was a simple hierarchy where there's Jesus and then there's everyone else.

00:18:14It's always been that way if you read through the Bible.

00:18:17There's always God and his people, Jesus and his people.

00:18:20So what happened was, and this is one of the key distinct features that latter rain and

00:18:28brannemism, I think, helped to develop, is this notion of the fivefold ministry.

00:18:34There is a passage in Ephesians that talks about the different offices, apostles, prophets,

00:18:39pastors, teachers, etc.

00:18:41But what they did in this movement was they tried to make it where it was a hierarchy.

00:18:45So you had Jesus and then this pyramid of hierarchy that everyone's trying to be.

00:18:50become the apostle because he's the kingpin.

00:18:52And that hierarchy was one of the building blocks.

00:18:57And there's many building blocks that changed the movement into a form of Christianity that

00:19:05wasn't quite what it was from its inception.

00:19:09But worse than that, it enabled people to take power and control over other people.

00:19:14So then, if you go through the history that I've presented through the podcast and through

00:19:20my books, take that hierarchy and take these people who are in leadership positions, who

00:19:27have authority and control.

00:19:29Now mix in all of the elements of politics.

00:19:33There were, throughout American history, there were several key battles in politics that had

00:19:40a religious component to it.

00:19:42But now if you have religious leaders who can control people, then they can push the political

00:19:47agendas in the churches.

00:19:49And so what happened was politics entered into the church, into all of these different apostolic

00:19:56networks to some shape or form.

00:19:58They have a little bit of politics.

00:20:00Some have a lot.

00:20:01But, well, if you listen to the politicians, the way that the politicians speak against the

00:20:07people who aren't aligned with them is very derogatory.

00:20:12So over time, what happened is in these churches, you would hear churches who are preaching at

00:20:17the centers instead of preaching for the centers and helping the centers.

00:20:21So it was like the gospel got flipped upside down onto its head.

00:20:24And because of that hierarchy and because of the elitism, the other problem that happened,

00:20:32you mentioned the sexual immorality of the leadership.

00:20:36Well, that's nothing new.

00:20:37Sexual immorality has existed since the dawn of time.

00:20:41But because of the hierarchy that exists, there are leaders who try to help other leaders

00:20:50who are falling to sexual immorality back into their positions of leadership.

00:20:54That's not something that happened in the gospels.

00:20:57Jesus did sit with the prostitute and the centers and tried to help the centers, but he didn't

00:21:02say, hey, you who are predisposed to having some sort of a issue, we don't want you leading

00:21:09over other people.

00:21:11And then that issue infect the church, essentially.

00:21:14So the gospel was flipped upside down.

00:21:17Leadership positions were created.

00:21:19And there's some other key elements that I'll get into.

00:21:22But in summary, the church that exists today in these new apostolic reformations has shifted

00:21:29so far from Christianity that if you're on the outside looking in, it doesn't even resemble

00:21:35Christianity.

00:21:36Yes, exactly.

00:21:37And I really value what you were just saying, which is that now this group wants to reinstate

00:21:46those who have a predisposition to perhaps being a predator.

00:21:50And as in British Columbia, perhaps being a pedophile.

00:21:55That's how serious this is.

00:21:57So rather than saying, you are forgiven, you're restored to the family of God, you're forgiven,

00:22:05go your way and sin no more.

00:22:09What it appears that the NAR has done is keep on restoring predator types to the point where

00:22:20we can't trust them.

00:22:21This is happening with Todd Bentley.

00:22:24Secondly, people continue to want to give him a platform in spite of everything we know.

00:22:31And it's all in the Roy's report.

00:22:33He had convictions for our main young boys when he was young.

00:22:40It's all in the Roy's report.

00:22:42It's fact.

00:22:43Then he grows up.

00:22:45We give him grace.

00:22:46He found the Lord.

00:22:48Then he's in relationships.

00:22:49Then he's having affairs, pictures, some stuff with men and women.

00:22:56And oh my, we have a predator.

00:23:00We have somebody who's not releasing it, even after being an incredible minister.

00:23:06Apparently, I can't get anything out of him myself.

00:23:09It's very odd.

00:23:09Before I ever knew anything about him, when I saw him, my spirit was sick.

00:23:19So then we have other people that we've seen.

00:23:24The Mike Bickles, Robert Morris in Dallas, and Art Lussier in British Columbia.

00:23:35These are predators.

00:23:38They have now with Robert Morris that I know of, he has not had anything come forward that

00:23:48he did anything again.

00:23:49Nonetheless, she was 12.

00:23:52That's beyond the pale.

00:23:54And in British Columbia, the girl was 11, the first one, who now has a civil suit in the

00:24:06Supreme Court of British Columbia against Art Lussier.

00:24:09The other girl, I think, was a little bit older.

00:24:12And then we have three other women that we can say allegedly have accusations against him

00:24:21for harming them.

00:24:22So what is it?

00:24:23Now he's been reinstated by an oversight committee that investigated for 1,000 hours, apparently.

00:24:31There's nothing given out to the public after they say they have 1,000 hours of investigating

00:24:38claims of spiritual abuse, financial abuse, sexual assault.

00:24:44There's nothing.

00:24:45This oversight committee of four, including one woman, knows that as of recent, this predator

00:24:53has released his bare butt picture.

00:24:56And I think we talked about this before across North America.

00:25:00He's a pastor who sent his bare butt to a married woman amongst many other pictures, including

00:25:10him being in the shower, in a steamy shower.

00:25:12This was grooming.

00:25:15And this oversight committee here in British Columbia have said, look, Laura Lynn, what

00:25:21jurisdiction do you have?

00:25:23How dare you speak to us about this?

00:25:26We're taking care of it.

00:25:27We're going to bring...

00:25:28We're not done yet investigating him.

00:25:30So we're going to bring, you know, due course, what we suggest needs to happen.

00:25:36So what they suggested needs to happen is he's back.

00:25:41He's on...

00:25:42He's been reinstated to being a pastoral person.

00:25:46And this, on the heels of the Roy's report comes out midweek.

00:25:52He's back in by Sunday, basically.

00:25:55I mean, I'm sickened.

00:25:57And this is the Gnar bunch.

00:25:59They love William Branham.

00:26:02They'd probably soak on his grave.

00:26:04I don't know.

00:26:05You know, Art Lussier was at the grave of Louis Rial, lighting a candle and standing near

00:26:10it.

00:26:13They want...

00:26:16That I know of.

00:26:16They haven't done any other grave soaking.

00:26:18But they want to be like William Branham, who raised the dead.

00:26:23And we all know what story that was.

00:26:26So this is the bunch that are just so...

00:26:31Like, where is...

00:26:32What is the measure by which you're allowed to be a pastor?

00:26:37Where is the measuring stick where you go, I'm sorry.

00:26:41Some people can't be a surgeon because they don't meet the grade.

00:26:45Some people can't be a pastor because they show their butts and they have five women making

00:26:50allegations behind the scenes that they're a sexual predator.

00:26:53But no, they're in the pulpit, leaving people unsafe.

00:26:57This is the Gnar group that I run with.

00:27:00Not any longer, by the way.

00:27:02I do not run with them.

00:27:04I forsake all of it.

00:27:06I repent.

00:27:07I'm not part of it.

00:27:09And I don't want any part of it.

00:27:10Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

00:27:15modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

00:27:21movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:27:24You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:27:29william-branham.org.

00:27:31On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

00:27:37Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

00:27:42audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:27:46You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

00:27:51movements.

00:27:52If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

00:27:57Contribute button at the top.

00:27:58And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

00:28:04to or watching.

00:28:05On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:28:10One of the things that you said that is of great importance if you're looking into this

00:28:15movement, what is the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:28:17You said basically you won't run with them, you won't be part of this.

00:28:23And you have to understand that that's really the key to understanding all of it.

00:28:26It is everyone a big part of a movement.

00:28:30And that movement isn't so much a move of the Holy Spirit, but they're touting it as

00:28:36though it is a move of the Holy Spirit.

00:28:38And they're placing, like you said, complete scoundrels and positions of leadership in this

00:28:43movement that exists.

00:28:46William Branham, by all accounts, if you go read any of the histories on the latter reign or

00:28:52the post-World War II healing revival, they all agree that William Branham spearheaded

00:28:57this movement.

00:28:58That doesn't necessarily mean that the men and women involved were fully aligned with

00:29:03William Branham.

00:29:04But what it does mean is that in the broad scope of the movement, the theological points

00:29:11that he was introducing, they were aligned enough to stick with him.

00:29:15Otherwise, like you just said, they would just walk away.

00:29:18Why would I stick with this thing?

00:29:21Yet at the same time, some of the things that he introduced were so anti-biblical and outright

00:29:27heretical, they were aligning themselves with false doctrine.

00:29:31And each of those false doctrines became building blocks for what developed into the New Apostolic

00:29:36Reformation.

00:29:37One of the things you mentioned is grave soaking.

00:29:40This isn't, there is no Bible precedent for grave soaking.

00:29:43This is spiritualism in its simplest form.

00:29:46Whenever the spirit dies, if you can accept the thing that is coming from the dead spirit,

00:29:52you're looking for that dead spirit of a human rather than the Holy Spirit to lead you and

00:29:57guide you and lead you into further truth.

00:29:59This comes from spiritualism.

00:30:02And Branham, we have evidence that suggests he was attending spiritualist camps.

00:30:06He actually mentioned an event that happened in a spiritualist camp in Indiana.

00:30:10So, he's introducing spiritualist doctrines, but he's also introducing the notion that

00:30:18the church today is cold and formal and needs revitalization.

00:30:27In other words, every other Christian out there is wrong.

00:30:30I'm right.

00:30:31So, he got all these men and women, these evangelists, to join into that.

00:30:36And what happened is, there's this big cross-pollination of ideas that happened.

00:30:43That's one of the power, I would say probably the most powerful thing in the New Apostolic

00:30:48Reformation is the cross-pollination of ideas.

00:30:51One apostle, prophet, or leader will say something extra-biblical, sometimes anti-biblical, preach

00:30:57it hard enough in the network that another guy picks it up, another girl picks it up, it

00:31:03starts spreading, and what happens is you can't identify the sources for many of the doctrines.

00:31:09It's cross-pollination.

00:31:11We don't know the sources for it, but some of the things that he's introducing is this

00:31:15idea that all other Christians out there, unless they're in our movement, have grown

00:31:21cold, formal, stale.

00:31:23And what happens is, God is going to come and restore the church to its original form,

00:31:29because the church today is dead.

00:31:32So, one of the key elements for understanding what is New Apostolic Reformation, there are

00:31:37different themes that have built upon that idea.

00:31:41There's the coming global revival, where everybody's going to come, there'll be this big revival,

00:31:46then we're bringing down heaven, we're bringing Jesus to earth, because we've basically summoned

00:31:53him.

00:31:53It goes back to spiritualism.

00:31:54There's the idea that we need to conquer the kingdom and prepare the kingdom for the

00:32:00coming of the Lord.

00:32:01That's dominionism.

00:32:03There's many ways to, you know, different flavors of how this exists.

00:32:08Some of the people who are preaching the same theology will actually deny the seven mountain

00:32:12mandate, but they still teach the foundation for it, which was laid by all of the leaders

00:32:17through this cross-pollination of doctrine.

00:32:20And so, where this ends up, you have men and women, some of whom are scoundrels, who believe

00:32:29that they are empowered by God to speak directly the voice of God through either prophecy, or

00:32:38go back to Kenneth Hagin, the bubbling, rambling weirdness that he did.

00:32:43And whatever they claim to have, whatever he claimed this rambling was that he said in

00:32:49poetic form, the church has to agree with it.

00:32:53And it comes back down to the political alignment.

00:32:56If you are a politician and you're pushing the movement forward, the people who are with

00:33:02you are either with you or they're against you.

00:33:05That's how politics works.

00:33:06So, these guys are pushing a political form of Christianity that doesn't help the sinner,

00:33:13isn't trying to improve the sinner, and in fact, wants to hate the sinner.

00:33:19So, as I'm developing what is my worldview after leaving the cult, one of the things that I had to

00:33:27come to terms with was I looked down on people that weren't of my same faith and belief set,

00:33:36but worse than that, people who desperately needed help, I despise them because we were

00:33:43trained and indoctrinated to do this.

00:33:45If you're a sinner, you're not of us, you're not of God.

00:33:49Rather than reach down a hand and pick them up, we all did this.

00:33:53And you can almost go on any video that I have on YouTube, and you can see all the people pouring

00:33:59hate.

00:34:00And what they don't realize is if you are on the outside looking in, say you're not a

00:34:05Christian, say you're an atheist, and you want to learn more about Christianity, so

00:34:09you come and you see the way the Christians are acting on these YouTube blog posts, etc.,

00:34:15they want no part of it.

00:34:17I don't want this hatred.

00:34:18Why would I want this hatred?

00:34:20If this is a God of hatred, I don't want Him.

00:34:22And if you read the Bible, it's not a God of hatred.

00:34:24So, what I would say to summarize all of that that I've just said, William Branham and others

00:34:31brought doctrines as primary building blocks of theology that were so anti-biblical, anti-Christian,

00:34:40and anti-gospel, but yet weren't openly clear that they were anti-gospel.

00:34:46So, other ministers may have unknowingly, you know, worshiped Jesus, believed in Jesus, believed

00:34:52the Bible, but accepted the doctrine, and then it cross-pollinated throughout all of this

00:34:57network.

00:34:59Once it was fully established, and you had the foundation of hatred, now it turns into

00:35:05what has literally today developed into hate groups.

00:35:09Wow, and that is a terrifying statement, and that would maybe explain the stronghold, the

00:35:19control, how people are terrified of these leaders, they are terrified of the way that

00:35:28they operate, and they're terrified of their anger.

00:35:31I don't know if there's any evidence that William Branham could be angry and controlling, but that

00:35:44kind of leader, even like Mike Bickle, the way that they turn against you, if you try to

00:35:51point out that there's a problem here, that maybe they are in the wrong, that maybe it isn't

00:35:57okay that there's 15 people now accusing you, the anger, and then the vitriol like that came

00:36:05out with Mike Bickle's sister in defending him.

00:36:08It's all that same spirit of rage.

00:36:11How dare you question us?

00:36:15And this has been what we've seen up close in Canada, British Columbia.

00:36:20The venomous anger in some of these, this is one of the things, and I think it's coming

00:36:31from what you're talking about, this elitism, this, well, we have something special, and some

00:36:38of them go farther than others.

00:36:40Like, I have a good friend, a wonderful pastor, and people call him an apostle, and he believes

00:36:48that he carries an apostolic anointing.

00:36:52I've never seen him run around saying he gets a special place in heaven.

00:36:56He's a very loving, kind, generous man to a fault, and he's not saying that.

00:37:06But then we've got others, like Dean Briggs is in this group, and Dean Briggs, perhaps people

00:37:16have said that underneath some of what he truly believes is an elitism about certain people

00:37:24have certain power, knowledge, or gifting that is above others, something like that.

00:37:31For me, one of the things that changed my perspective, I was reading, whenever I was reading the Bible

00:37:39over and over, I started in King James, because that's how we, we were all King James only

00:37:44people, but once I was able to evolve away from that mindset, I started reading not just

00:37:52a specific version, but different versions.

00:37:55I wanted to know a broad scope of what the Bible meant, and it's very difficult through

00:38:00one translation.

00:38:01One of the things that tipped me off to this, I was in an IT management position, I was working

00:38:09with people in another country, and we were having communication barriers because I could

00:38:14use a word or phrase, and for them to understand it, it took a whole paragraph of words to explain

00:38:21that one word, and vice versa.

00:38:23They would say something, and they would use one word, well, I've got to go look up a whole

00:38:27paragraph to understand that word.

00:38:29When the King James Version, or ESV, NIV, whatever it is that you read, there isn't a good way

00:38:36in the English language to take each word or phrase and make it fully understood as it

00:38:43meant in the ancient Greek.

00:38:44It's very difficult to do.

00:38:46So I started reading through the interlinear and different versions, and as I'm going through

00:38:52Colossians 2, it really hit me that the foundation of our faith that we had was so backwards from

00:39:02what Christianity should be.

00:39:04It says, we have the full riches and full assurance of understanding of the knowledge of God's

00:39:10mystery.

00:39:10And I'm pausing there purposefully, because if you are in one of these NAR churches or

00:39:18any of the churches that developed into the NAR, this word mystery has very, very overloaded

00:39:25language.

00:39:27They want to teach you a divine mystery that isn't in the Bible.

00:39:30You've got to read between the lines of what it is.

00:39:32You need an apostle.

00:39:34You need a prophet.

00:39:34They have to teach you what is the mystery.

00:39:37What is the mystery?

00:39:39Well, one of the building blocks that evolved into this was dispensationalism.

00:39:45And by and large, many of the churches today have rejected dispensationalism by words, but

00:39:54not by actions.

00:39:56Dispensationalism is the idea that there were different dispensations of time and God manifesting

00:40:03himself in different ways during those time periods.

00:40:07The most simplistic form in Branhamism, they taught that the seven churches of Asia Minor

00:40:13mentioned in the book of Revelation were actually seven time periods, seven churches.

00:40:19Laodicea, Laodicea being the last one.

00:40:22So anything that mentions Laodicea is for today.

00:40:26So if you read Colossians 2, I have for you and those at Laodicea, and then it talks about

00:40:32this mystery.

00:40:34So because of the indoctrinated response to this passage, my thoughts went to, this is

00:40:41written for us today, which is something that they do in these NAR churches.

00:40:46You read the books.

00:40:46Well, this is written to you.

00:40:48This is for us.

00:40:50But that's not actually what this is.

00:40:52This is a book that Paul, or this is a letter that Paul wrote to the church that existed

00:40:57at that time in Laodicea.

00:40:59And he says, the mystery, which now I'm going to continue, the knowledge of God's mystery,

00:41:05which is Christ.

00:41:07So everywhere where you're reading about the mystery, the mystery of God fulfilled, that

00:41:13loaded language was in my head.

00:41:15I would hear the word mystery and I would focus on, well, what is this?

00:41:18I need an apostle.

00:41:19I need a prophet.

00:41:20I'm going to a new church now that's not in the cult.

00:41:23Where are their prophets?

00:41:25Where are their apostles?

00:41:25And if you understand what Paul is saying here, you really don't need it.

00:41:30And where this hit me right in the butt, if you keep reading, he says that not to let

00:41:37anyone disqualify you by being puffed up by their own sensuous mind and going on in details

00:41:43about visions and angels.

00:41:46And I'm reading this thinking that not only describes the church that I left, now I'm looking

00:41:52at all of these churches that exist today.

00:41:54This is before I knew what NAR was.

00:41:57And I'm seeing in those churches the same exact thing, puffed up without reason, going

00:42:03on in details about visions and angels.

00:42:05And that's really what they're doing.

00:42:08And they're claiming that they have this mystery, this divine knowledge.

00:42:11You mentioned Mike Bickle.

00:42:13He's got this mystery, this divine knowledge that we're going to have this end of days revival.

00:42:18We need to build an army.

00:42:20We're going to be the ones to pave the way for Christ to come.

00:42:24And if we don't do it, he's not going to come.

00:42:27If you follow everything that he said out to its logical conclusion.

00:42:31So in effect, what Bickle was teaching, what Branham was teaching, what all of these others

00:42:36were teaching is summoning.

00:42:39You're in spiritualism.

00:42:41You summon a spirit.

00:42:43They're wanting to basically get up enough hype to summon Jesus Christ.

00:42:48When Paul is saying the mystery has already been revealed.

00:42:51We have Christ.

00:42:52He sent his Holy Spirit.

00:42:54So as I'm reading this and trying to piece all this together, I realized that, again, this

00:42:58is before I knew the NAR existed.

00:43:01I realized that the churches that developed from Branhamism and from this Lateran movement,

00:43:06they had flipped it so upside down that the very people that Paul is saying, do not let

00:43:14these people disqualify you, are now leaders in this movement.

00:43:18Absolutely enlightening.

00:43:20I appreciate that scripture that you were showing.

00:43:23And I do think that we have a problem with people that embrace this sort of thinking because

00:43:33if somebody's prophesied, because there's a lot of prophecies go on, so they say, you have

00:43:39an apostolic prophetic gifting.

00:43:42And if you're saying this and you're imparted this by the laying on of hands, then you can

00:43:51get a really swelled head if you're a certain type, especially, that I'm special and now

00:43:58people have to listen to me and I've heard for years not to touch God's anointed being

00:44:03put on me and now I'm the anointed.

00:44:06I've been given this special thing and man, you better watch it.

00:44:10This happened recently, um, with, uh, was it, uh, Mark Driscoll and, um, the lady that he

00:44:22was with, um, it's her name, Debbie.

00:44:25Anyway, she's like this, this person's coming in and saying it's of a big church and everything.

00:44:31I, you know, I feel something wrong has happened here.

00:44:33And she's like, Oh, you need to stop now.

00:44:37And then she starts speaking in tongues, speaking in tongues and telling her touch not

00:44:42God's anointed.

00:44:43You're not allowed to say this.

00:44:45You, you're, you can't do this, you know, and using like spiritual, uh, Christianese,

00:44:52um, gobbledy goop to literally silence.

00:44:57And she said that I, you know, I think she said silent, be silent, be quiet before the Lord

00:45:03or something like crazy nonsense.

00:45:05Who's who speaks to someone else like that?

00:45:07And, you know, personally, I I'm good with the gifts of the spirit, but I don't think

00:45:13you can become a crazy person, uh, trying to control others.

00:45:17And, you know, I think there's, um, mental illness that gets involved in all of it as

00:45:23well.

00:45:24You know, I had somebody writing me last night that I, I thought was kind of a normal person,

00:45:30but they have a crazy take on things.

00:45:33And I just went, okay, I just, I'm just going to have to put you in a different category

00:45:38now, you know, but this is happening in the church.

00:45:41Some people, so some people do maybe have an apostolic or fatherly, or they're a great

00:45:47minister, but then you get a title.

00:45:49Some people go crazy with that title.

00:45:51Other people just have a good heart, but all of it maybe has these different factions in

00:45:58the NAR movement, you mentioned the mental illness.

00:46:01Well, there's another component that is really difficult for people who are in the NAR to

00:46:07understand.

00:46:08There is a level of brainwashing that goes in these NAR churches.

00:46:13And Charles and I, in our historical research podcast that we've gone through, the revival

00:46:19history, we both came to the same conclusion after examining it.

00:46:24There is a, I can't remember the guy's name is, it may be Lifton.

00:46:29One of the psychological studies of how to program a mind is if you can take them, you

00:46:36can make the mind believe that something isn't there and make everyone around you claim that

00:46:43it is, you can actually start to shift and change somebody's perspective until they believe

00:46:50the thing that they know is false.

00:46:52I went to a, I went to help on a mission with a person who was indoctrinated in a cult.

00:47:00I had to go through this series of training on mind control, and I'm watching videos where

00:47:04they're putting this into practice.

00:47:05And it's kind of crazy.

00:47:06They had, they had these projectors and they had four different lines labeled A, B, C,

00:47:12and D.

00:47:12One of them was clearly shorter than the others.

00:47:16And they went around the room and each person would give the wrong answer purposely, but with

00:47:20confidence.

00:47:21And they had one test subject.

00:47:23And he's looking at everybody like, you guys are crazy.

00:47:26You can see that C is a shorter stick, right?

00:47:28Well, over time, as it went around the room and he got it wrong every single time, according

00:47:33to what everyone in the room was saying.

00:47:36Over time, you could see his eyes kind of glaze over and he started saying the same responses

00:47:42that everybody else did.

00:47:44And I looked at it and I thought, well, he's just, he's just given up and he's just wanting

00:47:49to not buck the system, but he doesn't believe it.

00:47:52But no, if you, if you actually follow this out to its conclusion in the study, the mind

00:47:57has actually been programmed.

00:47:59So take that, that I just said, and now think about positive confession.

00:48:03Positive confession is making everyone in the group tell you that you're healed.

00:48:09You yourself have the symptoms.

00:48:11You know that you're not healed.

00:48:13The minister is saying, go home, confess it.

00:48:16If you confess it, you will be healed.

00:48:19They'll sometimes lay hands on you, pray for you, whatever it is.

00:48:22And they're convincing you to lie about your current condition.

00:48:28And everyone around you is saying, well, you're healed.

00:48:31I just saw you healed.

00:48:32There's two factors that come into play.

00:48:37The movement itself developed into this very miraculous thing because of this.

00:48:43People were actually saying, I saw hundreds of people healed in that meeting.

00:48:48But in fact, what they saw was hundreds of people who had positive confession that they

00:48:52were healed of the thing that they still had when they left.

00:48:55In fact, one newspaper article that I read said, they came in on stretchers and crutches, and

00:49:01they left on stretchers and crutches.

00:49:04But yet, at that same revival, everybody's proclaiming that we saw massive healings here.

00:49:10It's this positive confession.

00:49:11Well, it is doing the same effect to the brain that these studies on psychology are doing.

00:49:17It is a mild level of brainwashing to make people believe in something that doesn't exist.

00:49:24Once you enter the brain into that level of control, now add to this the component of the

00:49:30apostle, the prophet.

00:49:32And this is one of the other key indicators of being Gnar.

00:49:35You have to have fresh revelation.

00:49:37These guys come, and they get onto the platform, and they say, I just got a word from the Lord.

00:49:44I just got this fresh revelation.

00:49:46That concept, while it sounds good, and while I fully believed it while I was in Branhamism,

00:49:53I started to realize after reading just what I read, this mystery has already been fulfilled.

00:49:59It's not that we need a new mystery.

00:50:01There is no, yes, there may be new, fresh revelations, but you're not building a theology

00:50:06or a church on it.

00:50:08In the Lateran movement, the post-World War II healing revival, and many of the movements

00:50:14that came after this, Rhema is actually named after this.

00:50:17Branham called it the spoken word.

00:50:19Hagen called it the Rhema.

00:50:20We have to have this new, fresh revelation because this is the new word for today.

00:50:24So, one of the key indicators of the Gnar, if you're in a church where the minister is

00:50:30continually saying, I got this new revelation from God, and let's talk about it, but we're

00:50:36not talking about the Bible, what it's doing is it's a sleight of hand.

00:50:40He's sleight of hand giving you his new thing, his new word, and at its worst form, in Branhamism,

00:50:48I remember countless sermons where the minister would hold up the actual Bible, the KJV, and

00:50:55say that this is like, for us, this is like a scope.

00:50:59We need to look through it through this fresh revelation.

00:51:01He was using William Branham as an example.

00:51:03You look through it with the fresh revelation to look through the Bible, and then you can

00:51:09hit your target.

00:51:10In essence, you can't hit your target with just the Bible.

00:51:13So, what happens is, with this idea of fresh revelation, the Bible is no longer good enough.

00:51:21And if you follow it out to its logical conclusion, eventually, in some of the more destructive

00:51:25groups, like Jim Jones, he taught the spoken word thing.

00:51:30Eventually, the Bible becomes replaced, and it turns into a different form of religion

00:51:34altogether.

00:51:35Yeah, I'm so glad that you're saying all of this, because I remember when this word of

00:51:39faith thing kind of hit, and I think I was like late teens, and heading into my early

00:51:4520s, and everyone started talking about this church that was down the way, word faith.

00:51:51Yeah, this is so exciting.

00:51:52You know, word faith, you've got to believe the word.

00:51:54You've got to declare the word, and profess it.

00:51:56And, you know, don't confess that you have that thing.

00:52:02I've had so many people say that to me, because I was diagnosed with lupus in 2006.

00:52:08And so, I'm actually a walking miracle.

00:52:11I don't take the drugs that they put me on, which was hydroxychloroquine.

00:52:16And that's the big drug that everybody was saying, oh, you know, don't, you know, you can't

00:52:23take it.

00:52:23And Trump brought it up, because it does have efficacy against SARS-CoV-2.

00:52:29Um, those are, you know, that's a fact with, uh, Fauci even had that, uh, that thing.

00:52:36I know all about it, because, you know, I'd, I'd be into it, but, um, I actually now no

00:52:42longer take it, uh, but not because of any, um, you know, I can't, can't say, oh, it was

00:52:48a healing moment from the Lord.

00:52:49But when I got COVID, I was in Costa Rica, and, um, you can get ivermectin over the counter.

00:52:55And so, I took ivermectin, and I took it for 10 days, um, and I have never had to go

00:53:02back on hydroxychloroquine again.

00:53:05And, uh, my symptoms are just totally down, because we do have parasites in our body, you

00:53:12know?

00:53:12And, but for years, people have said, don't declare that you have, um, that you have COVID.

00:53:18So, I talk about this on my show all the time, about just the, the, you know, the craziness

00:53:24that, that this little, this little drug of ivermectin that takes out worms from dogs

00:53:30or, or like, you know, all kinds of parasites and stuff like that, um, is the thing that

00:53:37really altered, um, my, you know, the, this lupus.

00:53:42But if I'll say, I have lupus, oh, no, don't say you have lupus, but I'm like, but I, I

00:53:48actually really do.

00:53:49I'm not even afraid of that.

00:53:51I would like it to go away, and I'd like it to be subverted.

00:53:53So, what I do is, I just pray that the Lord will give me enough strength to run circles

00:53:58around everyone, and I have that.

00:54:00I run circles around lots of people that don't have any disease to confess, and I just give

00:54:06all glory and praise to the Lord God for sustaining my body and my soul and giving me strength

00:54:11and giving me the joy of the Lord and help from heaven to, you know, but I'm, I'm in

00:54:17the word every day, and I loved what you said at the beginning, and I didn't get to answer

00:54:22it because I forgot, um, you know, when we talk so much, uh, we, we forget different little

00:54:28aspects, but you said that when you had to get into this, you just started reading and

00:54:32reading the word so that you could deprogram yourself from what you were taught.

00:54:37Like, how amazing is that?

00:54:40Like, that is so serious that we got to get deprogrammed from our religions by the Bible.

00:54:47Like, this needs to happen en masse, you know?

00:54:52And I think that's beautiful that God showed you, actually, how to get free, and the freedom

00:54:58comes from the truth, the word.

00:55:01It's accurate.

00:55:02We just need this, you know, we're all kind of getting a little bit tired of everyone's

00:55:07next book and next revelation of, you know, it's this or that, or, or even the angels or

00:55:13courts of heaven, you know?

00:55:15I was running with friends and they were, we had a, you know, our ecclesia, and so, and

00:55:22then we were doing courts of heaven, so they got trained in how to do courts of heaven.

00:55:26I was baffled.

00:55:27I didn't, I wasn't at the courts, I didn't know this was a thing, and how we would write

00:55:33it down and then come together and present it to the Lord as if we're in heaven, bring

00:55:37your petition to the courts of heaven.

00:55:39Like, there was a whole rigmarole to it.

00:55:42Well, I thought it was kind of cool, and like, this was about six years ago.

00:55:48I thought it's cool, okay, bring it to the courts of heaven and we'll pray.

00:55:52This is neat, like, you're acting like we're really in a court before the Father.

00:55:56All right, I go there every day just by praying, you know, but okay, we'll do a whole thing.

00:56:03And, and then later I go, ah, I don't know if this courts of heaven is really, like, it's,

00:56:09it's a new thing, you know?

00:56:10Like, where does it say in the Bible that y'all get together to do that?

00:56:13So, I see what you're saying, you know, John, and it's a serious thing to pay attention

00:56:18to, well, most of all, what the Bible says, and someone's got some new thing, don't, we

00:56:25can't be like sheep, because you were talking about indoctrination, and then I'll be quiet,

00:56:29I'm sorry.

00:56:30But sheep, like, we, we are sheep.

00:56:33We, we're all like sheep led astray so many times, because we're not critically thinking.

00:56:39And I don't think God ever asked us to, to stop thinking critically when some new form

00:56:46of doctrine, some new wave of how we do things comes along, that we just kind of blindly go,

00:56:53okay, well, I've always known this person and trusted him, so I'll just accept whatever

00:56:58he's saying, you know?

00:56:59We have to kind of go, eh, what does the Bible say, and get back to that, and that's

00:57:05how we're going to walk ourselves out of all this ridiculous stuff that's happened in the

00:57:10last few years.

00:57:11Yeah, one of the things that I found interesting, Branham's mentor was what was considered to

00:57:17be a confidence man.

00:57:19What we call today a con man is a confidence man, and what you do, you address an audience,

00:57:25you build their confidence, and you present something that you're either selling or, you

00:57:31know, in his case, he was selling religion, interestingly, and getting a lot of money for

00:57:36the religion.

00:57:37So if you can gain their confidence, you can hijack their minds and their pocketbooks.

00:57:43But how does that work?

00:57:45You can't allow the critical thinking.

00:57:47So if I were to trade, there are many things that I can say Branham, he was just one of many

00:57:52doing, but I can say that this idea of confidence man-type religion, there were many doing it,

00:57:59but Branham was mentored by one of the greatest con men of all time, Roy E. Davis.

00:58:05So that was the mentorship for what would become the post-World War II healing revival, which

00:58:12literally laid the groundwork for all of these apostolic networks.

00:58:15So, in essence, all of these apostolic networks were developed through the ideas of a con man,

00:58:22which makes the whole thing fascinating to me.

00:58:25But you mentioned lupus, and this could be a podcast for another day.

00:58:30It's something that fascinates me, and I'm really interested in it.

00:58:34There are several studies, and I have read through many of them, linking lupus and other

00:58:40autoimmune diseases to the psychological trauma that people experience.

00:58:47And when you are in one of these movements, whether you realize it or not, you are under

00:58:51psychological trauma.

00:58:53If you're under the leadership of anybody who's in the NAR, they are, number one, giving you

00:58:59spiritual abuse every Sunday, every service that you attend, but in some cases, they're

00:59:04causing others around you to cause trauma to you.

00:59:08And the reason I bring this up, I have family members who have lupus.

00:59:13I have family members who have died thinking through positive confession that they were healed

00:59:18of lupus and suffered until they died, believing that they had done something wrong to continue

00:59:24having lupus for the rest of their life.

00:59:26So they blame themselves for their lupus, when in fact it was the religion, in my opinion,

00:59:32that caused it.

00:59:34They still, I don't believe they yet know what causes it, but there are studies that show

00:59:40that a large number of people who have psychological trauma share the same type of disorders that

00:59:48cause the autoimmune diseases.

00:59:52So again, that could be another podcast for another day.

00:59:55It does fascinate me.

00:59:56Well, I think that that is a very, very good.

01:00:00And I have heard that, and especially any kind of stress, like that could induce all kinds

01:00:04of things in our bodies, not just lupus, but I think that's true.

01:00:09Now, I will just say, this is worth a try for your, your folks that are your family members.

01:00:15Um, uh, you know, we've just heard the president talking about Tylenol and my husband looked up

01:00:22and said, you know, four, four to 500 people die of Tylenol every year.

01:00:28And with ivermectin, it's just something that gets rid of parasites.

01:00:33It's not a big deal.

01:00:36It's a very, it's a FDA approved for 70 years product that I happen to believe some, some

01:00:45good doctors were putting out some information about it.

01:00:48Now, two doctors had told me prior to my experience with ivermectin, that if you have lupus, you

01:00:56have parasites in your spleen.

01:00:58Now I did not pay attention to them.

01:01:00I just went on and did the interviews and I went, oh, okay.

01:01:03I, but I just kept taking hydroxychloroquine and ignoring what they'd said.

01:01:07You know, it was said, so two doctors tell me parasites in your spleen and, um, wouldn't

01:01:16you know, I take 10 days of ivermectin, all the swelling leaves my hands.

01:01:22Um, everything that I had been having all these symptoms gone, but yes, I've had trauma associated

01:01:32with some of the things that I've been through.

01:01:35Yes.

01:01:36So looking at a holistic approach to our health, uh, not speaking lies, like, do we have to

01:01:44really, I mean, I get it, the power of the tongue.

01:01:47So I might say, well, I've been diagnosed with lupus, but I am believing God that I am going

01:01:52to get through.

01:01:53I'm going to live a long life, no impact on any of my organs and that God will give me

01:01:59the energy I need to fulfill his purpose.

01:02:01That's been my prayer, you know, but I don't like being fake.

01:02:05You know, I am having a bad day sometimes and I'd like to be able to just say it and say,

01:02:09well, if you could pray for me, let's come into agreement for the Lord to help me, you

01:02:14know, but, um, you know, we're two or three agree.

01:02:19That's biblical.

01:02:20Let's, let's just find something in the Bible.

01:02:23That's right.

01:02:24Instead of all this gobbledygook, they want to feed you.

01:02:28You know, I am, I am healed.

01:02:32You know, you're in a practically, you know, dying in the hospice and Kenneth Copeland would

01:02:39have you believe that you just don't have enough faith.

01:02:41We went through this.

01:02:43I was a young girl and a very prominent husband and wife, um, just, they were shattered because

01:02:51she got cancer.

01:02:52She was drop dead, gorgeous blonde lady.

01:02:55And this was a prominent family.

01:02:57And the church rose up with faith.

01:03:01We believed, we, we, we couldn't even envision that this lady was going to die.

01:03:07She was too young and beautiful, a lovely person to die.

01:03:13And nothing saved her, no prayers and no chemo.

01:03:18She died.

01:03:19And that was shattering to us as a body that was shattering to that family.

01:03:25But God is sovereign.

01:03:28He knows the beginning from the end.

01:03:31And just as with Charlie Kirk's, um, what we feel is an untimely death.

01:03:38The Lord had numbered his days from the beginning to the end.

01:03:43And that's Bible.

01:03:46God knows the breath of it.

01:03:48We have to trust him.

01:03:51And, um, man, I, I just honor, you know, how the world's kind of being changed a little by

01:03:57in his passing, some of the things, you know, that he said are more out there, but he wasn't

01:04:03perfect.

01:04:04He didn't say everything right.

01:04:06I've seen some clips where I think, oh, he was a bit mean, you know, he did say some things

01:04:12I don't agree with.

01:04:13He's not perfect.

01:04:14He was not Jesus and he is not God.

01:04:18He was a good man though.

01:04:19He loved his wife and his kids and he taught the world to engage in conversation.

01:04:24And sometimes we just can't explain these things where the Lord takes someone, you know,

01:04:31at his and in his time.

01:04:34Yeah, it is sad.

01:04:35Well, there's a lot more I could go into.

01:04:38I think I'll end with that book.

01:04:41If you read the New Apostolic Reformation, a history of a modern charismatic movement.

01:04:45It's a great book.

01:04:47Yes.

01:04:47John Weaver, did you say?

01:04:49Is that the one?

01:04:50John Weaver.

01:04:50Yep.

01:04:51By John Weaver.

01:04:52Yeah, I wrote that down.

01:04:53In summary, and the book will summarize it much better than me, if you're in a group

01:04:58that teaches you that you have to have an apostle or a prophet to be led by the Holy

01:05:03Spirit rather than telling you, go be led by the Holy Spirit, you essentially have a mediator

01:05:09between God and man, which the Bible condemns.

01:05:12And if you are in these movements that tell you that you need a spiritual covering or you

01:05:18have to align with an apostolic network, that's New Apostolic Reformation, they're almost

01:05:23openly declaring it at that point.

01:05:26And if they're talking about how we need this big coming revival, we need to restore the

01:05:32church, there has to be this theme of restoration along with your Christianity, number one, it's

01:05:38anti-biblical.

01:05:38There is nothing that says that God sent his son and then the church would fall away and

01:05:45it would have to be restored.

01:05:46There is no Bible precedent for this at all.

01:05:50This is New Apostolic Reformation 101.

01:05:52Wow.

01:05:53And if they're saying that we have a new revelation for today, a new word, et cetera, that's what

01:05:59this movement was trained and manipulated to do.

01:06:03And it turned into various forms of spiritualism.

01:06:07I'm going to summon the Holy Spirit through grave soaking or we're going to call down heaven.

01:06:13There's different phrases that they use, which is literally summoning from spiritualism.

01:06:19So read the book.

01:06:20It'll help you if you're listening and you want to know more.

01:06:24If you're worried that you're, I get people sending me emails, am I in an NAR church?

01:06:28And they want me to go look up the leader.

01:06:31I actually avoid looking at most of the modern leaders.

01:06:34I just look through the fundamentals.

01:06:36Are they doing these things?

01:06:38It's probably a New Apostolic Reformation church.

01:06:41Run for your lives.

01:06:42So thank you so much for doing this.

01:06:45Wow, John, as always, I just enjoy our conversation so much.

01:06:49I learn a lot and I need to because I'm just in the middle of this.

01:06:54This is very personal for me and I enjoy speaking with you and I know that you are helping thousands

01:06:59and thousands of people to get an understanding of what's happened here and how we move forward.

01:07:07So we appreciate you, John, so much.

01:07:09So many people say that they just love your shows.

01:07:12They're telling, I saw you on John Collins' show.

01:07:14We just love him.

01:07:16We've been following him.

01:07:17He's taught us so many things.

01:07:19And so that's what you're doing.

01:07:21You probably don't, you know, you don't get to hear all the good stuff behind the scenes.

01:07:27But well done.

01:07:28Well done.

01:07:29Thank you for all that you give us.

01:07:30Well, thank you.

01:07:31It is encouraging to hear that people are being helped.

01:07:34That's the number one reason I do what I do.

01:07:37So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the

01:07:42web.

01:07:42You can find us at william-brannum.org and Laura Lynn Live.

01:07:46For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

01:07:51from Christian Identity to the NAR.

01:07:54Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Unmasking the New Apostolic Reformation: Spiritualism vs the Gospel | Laura Lynn Tyler Thompson

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