- 3 months ago
The big talking point of this episode of 5 Live is Delhi's perennial air pollution problem around Diwali.
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00:00Hi there, I'm Sonal Mehrotra Kapoor. This is 5 Live. It's that time of the year. Festivities are in the air. But what else is in the air? Well, a big dampener called air pollution. We can't seem to escape it year after year. And this year, it's expected to get even worse. Why? Because we all know what the Supreme Court is now allowed. Green crackers will be allowed in a stipulated time period on those specific days post-Diwali as well.
00:29So how is it that you and I should prepare? And importantly, if you are one who still thinks that air pollution does not matter, this program is for you. But first up, let's take a look at what else is making news across the country and the world.
00:44Mega shake-up in Gujarat, where as Gujarat ministers, all of Gujarat ministers have actually resigned. You have the Chief Minister there, Bhupesh Patel, who's accepted their resignation. Gujarat CM is also to meet the governor now.
01:04Then there is CM Yodi Agitinath accusing Congress and RJD of creating distractions to block Bihar's development in the upcoming polls.
01:20As he has said, while Bihar's youth focus on progress, the Mahagat bandhan parties are stirring a development versus Burkhart debate and trying to manipulate elections with fake polling and allowing foreign infiltrators to steal Bihari rights.
01:35All right. The number three headline for the day is coming in from Infosys, where the founder, N.R. Narayan Murthy and his wife, Rajasabha MP Sudha Murthy, have declined to participate in the Karnataka government's ongoing social, educational and economic survey.
01:56The duo has said that they do not belong to any backward community and hence would not take part in the government exercise meant for such groups.
02:08Then there is news coming in from Karnataka, where BJP versus Congress in Karnataka over RSS peaks.
02:14Karnataka minister has penned a new letter to Chief Minister Sidharamaya urging strict action against government employees participating in RSS events.
02:23He has cited civil services rules and also requested a circular warning of disciplinary action.
02:30Meanwhile, the Sidharamaya government is mulling a new bill banning RSS activity.
02:39The alleged kidney racket across Tamil Nadu took centre stage in assembly with opposition leaders wearing black armbands in protest.
02:48The demonstration followed reports that certain hospitals were involved in an illegal kidney trade, targeting poor labourers.
02:59Over 250 Naxalites surrender in two days.
03:03Home Minister has lauded India's fight against Red Terror, saying the country will be Naxalmukth by March of 2026.
03:13The Supreme Court has rejected the Telangana government's request to overturn the High Court's temporary ban on increasing reservations for OVC communities beyond the 50% limit set by the 1992 Indra ruling.
03:28Father of the Air India pilot in the Ahmedabad train crash that killed over 270 people has now moved to the top court, seeking an independent investigation that takes into account causes other than pilot action.
03:45Ahead of the Lankan Prime Minister's visit to India, Tamil Nadu's chief minister writes to the Prime Minister over Khtivu.
03:56Stalin has now said that the Tamil fishermen face repeated harassment by Lankan Navy.
04:01He has also urged the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Modi, to discuss about retrieval of these people and release the fishermen as well.
04:11Hours after US President claimed that Prime Minister Modi assured him that he won't buy oil from Russia anymore,
04:21Ministry of External Affairs says that India's consistent priority is to safeguard the interest of the Indian consumer in a volatile energy scenario,
04:31adding that India has diversified its energy sources over the years to ensure steady supply and affordable prices.
04:41All right, like I said, it's that time of the year again.
04:47The winter seems to be creeping in.
04:50Delhi's air quality has once again plunged into the danger zone,
04:54with pollution levels across key areas reaching poor to very poor categories.
05:00At Anand Vihar, for example, let's pull up those graphics for you.
05:03AQI hit a hazardous 366, while Dwaraka Sector 8 actually recorded 326, both marked very poor, posing serious health risks as well to people.
05:18Central parts of the city, which we think are greener, no better.
05:23Major Dhyanshan Stadium and Chani Chowk saw AQI reading of 286, 276 respectively over there.
05:31Again, poor category there.
05:33The air quality in RK Puram and ITO, well, that's said to be the hub.
05:37A lot of traffic there as well.
05:39No better remain to be in the poor category.
05:42And what's the story here?
05:45The story is that this is the state of awareness even before we have hit Diwali,
05:51even before we have started taking into account stubble burning from neighbouring states.
05:56Imagine none of that has started and we are already in the poor to very poor category.
06:02And it's said to get worse.
06:05Why?
06:05Because remember, on Wednesday, the Supreme Court gave a green signal to green crackers.
06:10Experts have warned that after Diwali, the AQI is going to worsen and sustained exposure to such toxic air can lead to breathing and health issues.
06:18So, what are we doing on the programme today?
06:22We are discussing Delhi's perennial pollution problem.
06:26Is there a pollution solution available?
06:29And what is it that you and I can do as citizens to bring in some level of impact?
06:34Here on India Today on 5 Live, we are doing a doctor's roundtable to make sure that you are aware,
06:43to help you understand the problem of pollution and also to understand, if you are not convinced so far,
06:51why you should care about pollution.
06:55I'm very happy to have an expert panel joining me now.
06:58And it is spread across categories to really give us a full 360 view.
07:03We have with us Dr. Nihar Parikh.
07:05He's a paediatrician director of CHERS Child Care.
07:08So, it will be very lovely to understand what pollution is doing to kids.
07:12Then we have Dr. Vivek Nangya.
07:13He's a pulmonologist.
07:15What is pollution doing to our hearts?
07:17We have Dr. Bhimlesh Dharpande.
07:18He's the director of rheumatology at Fortis Hospital in Noida.
07:22There is a recent study that has said that pollution is actually linked to arthritis as well,
07:26which is what I want to really get into and understand from him.
07:29And then we have Dr. Balbir Singh.
07:31He's the chair and head of cardiology, PanMax, Max Healthcare.
07:35He's a Padma Shri awardee as well to tell you how pollution impacts your heart.
07:40Let me give the first word then to Dr. Balbir Singh.
07:44Dr. Balbir Singh, we've been tracking air pollution year after year.
07:48For me, the change that has come in has been the fact that though we are more aware,
07:57we don't seem to be seeing more sort of solutions.
08:01There is no pollution solution on the ground just yet.
08:05The baseline pollution level is what I'm talking about.
08:07Because overall, we see farm fires go down.
08:11We see farmers finally being aided with the right solutions.
08:15But how exactly is it that even this very poor category of pollution level and this AQI is doing to us?
08:24Let me take that question to Dr. Vivek Nangya first then.
08:28Dr. Nangya, we've seen you write report after report.
08:31We've seen doctors talk about how lungs of even young kids are turning black.
08:37But there are still some who feel that air pollution is not the problem.
08:41That our body will adapt in some way.
08:43Some weird explanation that I keep hearing from people.
08:46What is the clinical advice that you are giving your patients?
08:52So, Sonal, basically first we need to understand that what all harms can air pollution do to our lungs?
08:58And not just the lungs, but the entire health.
08:59I mean, the entire human body.
09:02You know, the effect is not just restricted to the lungs.
09:05When you have a larger particulate matter, like 10 microns and all, 10 microns and above,
09:10that usually gets filtered at the nasal level itself.
09:12And all it can cause is some kind of burning in the eyes, irritation, nasal congestion.
09:19A particle size between 5 to 10 would get stopped in the upper airways.
09:24So there it would usually cause cough, irritation.
09:26But a particle size less than 2.5 microns goes right into the lungs, triggers off an inflammatory cascade,
09:33which then impacts the entire body.
09:35That includes the brain, the heart, kidneys, liver, all organs of the body.
09:40And in fact, even predisposed to certain hematological cancers as well.
09:43So, if we enumerate the various systems and the various diseases it can cause,
09:48starting from the brain, it can cause, you know, brain strokes, brain attacks, heart strokes, heart attacks.
09:55Similarly, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases, hypersensitivity, pneumonitis, lung cancer.
10:01Lung cancer is becoming increasingly common in the younger non-smokers.
10:05You know, conventionally, it was considered to be a cancer of the smokers.
10:09But now, as we see, in non-smokers, it is more common, probably because of the air pollution around us only.
10:15And this impact is also in pregnant ladies, you know, especially when they're carrying a child in the womb.
10:21The child itself, even before being born, can be impacted with a slow development of the lungs,
10:29poor immune system, intrauterine growth retardation, and so many other complications.
10:34And as the child starts to grow, they start developing allergies, more frequent respiratory tract infections,
10:41and, in fact, some pollutants can even result in mental retardation in the children.
10:46So, the impact of, you know, air pollution is far and wide.
10:51If you see, there are studies which have actually shown that our lifespans have gone down by anything between 2 to 12 years.
10:58the average expected lifespans in people who are being exposed to this kind of air pollution.
11:04Dr. Nankia, you talked about kids, which brings me to Dr. Nihar Parikh there, and I want to understand this.
11:12Dr. Parikh, we've spoken, like I said, year after year about how many kids are actually coming in with faults,
11:19how many of them are coming in with, you know, their body parts not functioning properly,
11:24and everything in some form or the other related to environment, related to pollution.
11:29I want a very specific answer to how much level of pollution starts impacting you immediately.
11:38Because, you know, while we are showing the Delhi numbers right now, Bombay is no better.
11:43Mumbai, Bangalore, any metro is not better.
11:45In fact, I would go ahead to say that even tier 2 cities now, places like Kanpur and Lucknow are also getting worse.
11:53Because there seems to be no understanding of this problem in the first place.
11:56So, at what level of AQI would you say, now it's dangerous, pack your bags and probably take a pollucation?
12:06I mean, you know, it's around the year phenomenon, especially, but during the winter,
12:12you will have to have a vacation for more than 3 to 6 months, because this is not going to get better.
12:19It gets worse year after year, year after year.
12:23The minute there is smog in the air, above AQI, going above 140, 150,
12:29it is directly proportional to the kids walking into our clinic.
12:33The number of nebulizers prescribed, the number of inhalers started,
12:37the number of antibiotics for an infective cough, you know, secondary to an allergic cough,
12:44is just exponentially, and we see it the next day.
12:48The minute we see the clear skies turning into gray skies,
12:53the minute we look out of our work windows and we can't see buildings down the road,
12:57we know next day is going to be loaded with it.
13:00And this doesn't get better.
13:02As the winter sets in, as the firecrackers are, you know, are put, they set ablaze,
13:09and those, in the north you have the crops being burnt, it's just going to get worse.
13:14I have not seen clear blue skies for winter, at least in the last 3 to 4 years.
13:20COVID was probably the last time we had brilliant AQI.
13:23Yes, I was just going to point out.
13:24After that, I don't think it's going to get better.
13:26Dr. Balbir Singh, there are still those who are not convinced.
13:38There are still those who are going to the Supreme Court to say,
13:41allow crackers, make it green.
13:44There are still those who are saying,
13:45they've given up.
13:48They're saying, we can't sanitize every place.
13:50How long will we keep our kids inside the houses, not send them to school?
13:55To those people, do you have an argument?
13:59Do you have a way to explain why we should care about pollution?
14:04Why should we should be very, very worried?
14:08So, I'm a cardiologist.
14:09So, I can tell you that we always think pollution affecting the lungs.
14:13What we forget is that the commonest cause of death due to pollution is heart, not the lung.
14:19And why does pollution cause death?
14:22Because it sets up an inflammatory reaction by those small particles that can come in into the lungs.
14:30They set up an inflammation.
14:31Body says, I'm struggling to fight against a small particle which is not mine.
14:36So, it has a cascade.
14:38It attacks that with inflammation.
14:40That inflammation hits the vessels which supply blood to the heart.
14:44This leads to heart attacks.
14:45So, this is something very silent.
14:47And people won't understand how pollution is causing a heart attack.
14:50Because it is very simple to understand that it goes to the lung.
14:52So, you need bronchospasm.
14:54So, they think nebulizer is a solution.
14:56But what they don't understand is that it is reducing their lifespan.
14:59It is reducing mortality.
15:01And heart is a silent killer.
15:03It can cause a severe heart attack.
15:05And we know the London pollution.
15:09The first one happened.
15:10The heart attacks rose tremendously.
15:13And there were more deaths due to heart attacks than to lung problems.
15:15So, we have to understand that this heart problem is a silent problem.
15:21And pollutants add to the fire.
15:23So, it is like smoking.
15:24So, if we say that please don't smoke, we also say that there will be less pollution.
15:29So, how do we compare?
15:30So, people have to understand that it is not just cough.
15:33It is just not nebulizer which is going to help you.
15:36It is an increased risk of heart attacks and brain strokes both.
15:42Got it.
15:43Got it.
15:44You know, I am not surprised that you are saying it.
15:46We all know internally the story and how it is connected to air pollution.
15:50What really baffles me is that there are so many who are still not convinced.
15:53Which brings me to Dr. Vipresh Dhar now.
15:56Dr. Dhar, you know, year after year, as the air pollution problem is escalating,
16:01we are truly now understanding the extent to which it can go.
16:06And the extent to which it can cause a problem as well.
16:09So, you did a study very recently that linked air pollution to arthritis.
16:16Please take a moment to explain to our viewers how exactly is air pollution linked to arthritis.
16:23Thank you for having me here at India today.
16:27So, at outset, I will put a few facts which are known to us about arthritis.
16:32It affects young population, mostly women, and in the best age group that is between 20 to 40.
16:41So, there is a genetic and a hormonal link known to us.
16:46There was already a study available to us which says that smoking increases arthritis.
16:51So, Western population where ladies did have much more smoking, there was a higher incidence of rheumatoid arthritis.
16:57So, what was in India which was not linked to smoking?
17:02So, that was a study which highlighted the particulate matter of 2.5.
17:07PM 2.5 was the component which was linked to our study which highlights that pollution aggravates your arthritis.
17:16So, we know we have a gene and a hormonal stress factor which contributes to arthritis.
17:21But what was a catalyst or what was triggering it was a particulate matter in our society, in our population, in our country.
17:30Now, what happens when you take this study and go to the rural area, you will find a stark difference.
17:37People who were in and around the main arterial roads of our larger cities had the worst type of arthritis compared to the rural areas.
17:47So, even if I have a gene and I'm in the same vulnerable population but I'm away from pollution, I have a lesser amount of arthritis.
17:55Let us do the other way around.
17:57If I say that there is a power plant, say Dadri, so what is the incidence of arthritis in and around Dadri versus if I go to a hinderland where the same population is supposedly there, surviving there or living there.
18:16They actually have a lesser.
18:17So, that exactly means that what we knew, how smoking affects us in terms of autoimmune disease is similar how the pollution affects us, our immune system, creates a havoc in our immune system leading to increased incidence of arthritis.
18:35And that requires a course correction and that requires awareness about pollution and linked to arthritis.
18:43All right, you've heard opening comments, viewers, from all the doctors and all of them agree and tell you that it's a problem.
18:56All of them are saying the same thing, that we are not even understanding how not just bringing down your quality of life, it's actually leading to disasters in some place.
19:05So, the question is really simple then, Dr. Nangia, then how are we to deal with this?
19:13What was your reaction to green crackers, for example, being allowed by the Supreme Court?
19:19Okay, so green crackers have been shown to reduce the emission by about 25 to 30%.
19:26But we still need to remember that there is still some emission that is happening, you know, especially firecrackers like Phool Jadi, Anaar, Ladi, Saamp, you know, they all and the Char Khi,
19:39they all emit almost 200 to 2000 times higher particulate matter that has ever been allowed by the WHO limits.
19:47So, that is the limit, you know, and then if it is a reduction by 25-30%, how much are we really going to benefit from it?
19:53And let's not forget that it is not just the higher concentration, but just an exposure to the air pollution for somebody who's vulnerable.
20:00And when I say vulnerable, it actually means that children at 5 years of age, elderly more than 60 years of age,
20:06and those who have any kind of comorbidity like a heart disease, lung disease, kidney disease, any kind of immunocompromised state,
20:13they would all be prone to developing complications because of the air pollution, even if there is a 25-30% reduction.
20:20But yeah, again, you know, you feel that, okay, something is better than nothing.
20:23At least we still have some degree of reduction in the air pollution levels with the use of green crackers.
20:30But not that there would be 100% and 100% not being effective on our lungs.
20:37Yeah. Dr. Balbir Singh, I mean, all of you in this question, please take it up whoever wants to as well.
20:43Dr. Balbir Singh, you have such high-profile patients, you have politicians and celebrities come to you.
20:51So, this is one problem which is an equalizer. It impacts everybody.
20:55The beggar on the road to the one who is driving an Audi or a Porsche, right?
21:00It impacts everyone. Why is it that we have failed to take it up as a campaign?
21:07Why is it that our politicians are just not realizing the issue just yet?
21:12They are going to the court to say, allow it, it's tradition.
21:16So, I would think that they have not understood the problem well now.
21:20They think pollution causes some cough or some visibility problems.
21:25Nothing beyond that.
21:26They have not understood that it can lead to serious impacts on the vascular system and decrease the longevity.
21:33Over a period of time, pollution every year is going to reduce the number of years that we live in.
21:39It is going to increase the number of heart attacks.
21:41Now, this has not been understood well by these politicians or these high people.
21:45And they feel pollution is just cough and a nebulizer may help or putting a mask may help, which it doesn't.
21:53And that is the major concern that this has not impacted.
21:57So, problems like stub burning should have been tackled much well in time.
22:03It's not that they cannot be tackled.
22:05They should be tackled with a tough hand.
22:07And only then they will happen.
22:08As a doctor sitting here, I can just reiterate that the problems of pollution are many.
22:14I can just suggest to them that it is time that we all work together and get this problem, a solution to this problem, where there are many solutions, which they are best at finding.
22:24Well, talking about it, I think there has been some substantial work.
22:28There has been some work done in Punjab and Haryana on stubble burning.
22:33This year, anyways, because of the floods, we will not see perhaps so many farm fires happen as well.
22:37But what we are looking at is a baseline pollution in the metros, which seems to be up all year round, only to be getting to an unlivable condition during the winters.
22:49But Dr. Parekh, you know, Dr. Balbir Singh mentioned a very interesting bit about wearing a mask, etc.
22:56When it comes to kids, you can't even do that.
22:59Kids below three, correct me if I'm wrong, can't even wear a mask.
23:03So, what are we to do?
23:05When I go to my pediatrician, he'll tell me, Delhi is no place to live.
23:10Pack your bags.
23:11Go to the hills.
23:12When I was dressing up for this show, my makeup person just told me,
23:17I will not live next week, I have asthma, I have to tell the doctor to leave the city.
23:22That's the reality of our times.
23:25Yeah, so the thing is, it's so true and it's so unfortunate that we see our children grow up like this.
23:31We see kids right from, you know, the day they're born, right in front of us, go through this entire rigmarole
23:37of getting coughs, nebulizers, irrespective of the father or being an asthmatic, yes or no.
23:42Initially, genetics used to play a role.
23:44If father and mother are asthmatic, chances of the child requiring nebulizers frequent and initials later or higher.
23:51But that's not the case anymore.
23:53It's the air quality that determines their respiratory growth.
23:57Frequent medications, nebulizers, like you rightly said, no masks under two and three years of age.
24:04So they just have to go.
24:05So the only thing you can do, and the take-home message for the parents is try and at least improve the air quality at home.
24:11I have a lot of parents who say, hey, what is the advantage, even when they step out.
24:14But even at at least some part of the day, 40 to 50 percent of the child's day is spent at home.
24:20Maybe more, but definitely not less.
24:23So trying to improve the quality of air at home itself is a start.
24:27Getting a good air purifier.
24:29Maybe getting rid of dust collectors, especially in the room they're sleeping in.
24:33Like, for example, rolling up the carpets, locking up the soft toys.
24:36Getting rid of bird feeders in and around the house, which are known to contribute.
24:40Sunning the mattress.
24:42Getting dust mite resistant, mattress covers, uve covers.
24:45So these are things that you can do as a parent to at least try and help a little as long as the child is inside the house.
24:54But how long can you keep your kid inside the house?
24:56And it's not just the kids, your own health as well.
24:59Dr. Dhar is just smiling at that one as we continue to bring out pictures and the statistics of how Delhi's air goes immediately poor after Diwali.
25:10And as one of you also pointed out, except for COVID, when there was no vehicular pollution because everybody was home, working from home, our roads were actually freer.
25:20That was the only time we could breathe.
25:22I have a few words and a comment.
25:29It is you who is most responsible to take up the cause, champion the cause and spread the awareness.
25:36The citizens also require their voice and the voice should be a collective voice.
25:42The politicians also form the part of the society.
25:46The high profile are also the part of the society.
25:49They can afford air filters.
25:51They can have air purifiers.
25:53They can have the best living conditions.
25:55Not the poor persons.
25:56So let's have a resolve where we put up or highlight this point.
26:00It is not only a health disaster.
26:03When we say that we live five or ten years less than comparable with the same genetic makeup in other part of India,
26:11it shows a poor quality of life when we have to live in a very stressful condition health-wise and environment-wise.
26:20So it is not a good place to be in metropolitan anymore.
26:25People have come from distant places to make a living, but they will slowly leave this place if they continue to have a poor quality.
26:33I don't want to see my son suffering because of a poor quality of air or pollution.
26:38So I may go back to my smaller towns from where we came.
26:42So this is something where the reverse brain drain sort of a thing will happen for the metropolitans.
26:48So resolve, not only at the time of Deepavali, it should be around the year resolve about our poor quality.
26:56That's the only way.
26:57You're right.
26:58You're right that citizens should take up the cause.
27:00You're right about everything else as well.
27:02But this is not a problem which can have a private solution.
27:06And Dr. Balbir is saying, please correct me if I'm wrong.
27:09This is not a problem which can be solved by putting air purifiers or wearing a mask or staying in a sanitized area and saying that,
27:16OK, I am protected, I will live in a bubble, and that is about it.
27:21This is a problem that needs a public solution.
27:26And we've been asking for it year after year.
27:28The point is, it's only this time of the year when it gets out of hand that we really get to question it.
27:35But frankly, if I were to look at AQI levels and I track it throughout the year, even around March, even about a month ago, it was still about 150-200.
27:45The haze hasn't left us.
27:47It's just that we are so used to seeing absolutely bad that we've become OK with something which should not be there as well.
27:53Dr. Singh.
27:53Yeah, so I fully agree with you.
27:57As a citizen, what do I do?
28:00I can't be putting the mask the whole day.
28:02I can't be sitting in my room with the air purified the whole day.
28:04I have to go out.
28:05I have to go on the roads.
28:07These are no solutions.
28:08Solution has to come as a big campaign which has to involve the politicians and other people who can build a program to reduce the pollution rates.
28:18And there are many solutions.
28:19There's not one solution.
28:20There are many solutions.
28:20Many cities in the world around have done those solutions effectively.
28:26Many cities in China, Japan have done it effectively.
28:30And so can we.
28:31But we need to understand that it is just not cough, which is the problem with pollution.
28:36Because if people think it's a small problem, it is not like COVID, that we have to strike hard, then they are wrong.
28:42So that has to be understood by them that this is not a small problem.
28:47This is a big problem, and we have to tackle it with a strong hand.
28:52You know, pollution is a slow killer.
28:54I think people don't understand that.
28:56It's not like you're going to have a stroke today because of pollution.
28:59But your stroke could be linked to pollution.
29:01I was interacting with a bunch of doctors who treat in cancer, and she said that I have five categories of high risk.
29:10Number one is genes.
29:11Number two is air pollution.
29:13I was shocked.
29:14She said people who stay in most polluted areas all year round, not just, you know, this time of the year where you can possibly escape if you're privileged enough to do that, are showing higher risk of cancer as well.
29:26So this is a very serious problem, but Dr. Nangya, you and I have been speaking for years now on this issue.
29:34We have put out billboards of lungs going, turning from pink to black.
29:38We have shown pictures on Instagram saying this is what your lungs look like.
29:44We have spoken about it at every forum possible, but yet we are here.
29:49So I ask you, do you think, what is it that we are not doing, what is lacking, that there is still no solution for pollution?
30:00What is it that we are still doing that nobody seems to be waking up when I can tell you all our politicians are as impacted by it as anybody else, as that traffic cop on the street or the street vendor who's trying to earn his daily wage?
30:14Everybody it impacts equally.
30:16See, I think the solution to this is much more complex than we actually think.
30:23You know, one, of course, is a political will and the other also is that something that we ourselves can do.
30:28You know, what we completely forget at times is that there are certain measures that we can take, like avoid moving outside when it is not necessary, especially when the AQI levels are so high.
30:39I think time has come where we need to decide our outdoor activities based on the AQI levels.
30:44So when AQI is more than 400, then nobody should be actually moving out or moving out only for essential work and not more than that.
30:51When the AQI level is more than 300, then one should be avoiding any kind of strenuous physical activities like, you know, exercising outdoors or all these, the marathons and the games, sports activities, all that should be avoided outdoors.
31:07And when AQI is more than 200, then for all those who are vulnerable, you know, those who fall into the vulnerable category, as I mentioned earlier, they should be avoiding any kind of strenuous physical activity outdoors.
31:17So those are certain measures that we need to be taking.
31:20I think we need to be relying more on carpools now because a lot of smoke and a lot of smog that is created is also because of the traffic congestion, vehicular congestion outside.
31:33You know, so that is something that we need to be taking.
31:35Having more, planting more green trees around us is very, very important.
31:39We should be making use of public transport, especially metros.
31:43You know, in Delhi, you have such a good metro network.
31:46I think we should be using more of that.
31:49Avoid smoking ourselves.
31:50You know, there are still people who are continuing to smoke and they consider it a joke that how does it matter that, you know, if I'm smoking, because in any case, I'm exposed to the poor air quality outside.
32:00So that is something that we need to understand that we're doubly harming ourselves.
32:03It's like a double whammy kind of a situation where already you're exposed to the air pollution.
32:08On top of that, you're smoking as well.
32:10In 2019, almost 1.6 or 1.7 million deaths in India alone were attributable to air pollution.
32:17You know, every year when the AQI levels increase, there is a definite increase in the number of patients getting admitted to the hospital with not just asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease attacks, but also with acute heart attacks.
32:31You know, so that is the situation that we're facing.
32:33And I think it's important that we realize ourselves and not just the outdoor air pollution, but there's a lot one can do for the indoor air pollution.
32:39Also, because 80% of our time is spent indoors.
32:43You know, if you actually see you're in the office, in the malls, in schools, hospitals, wherever you are, they're all indoor situations where the air quality is still in your control.
32:54But we tend to forget all that, you know, that indoor air quality.
32:58But let's talk about, let's talk about how, what we can do, because we can, you know, keep debating till the cows come home on what is the solution and keep waiting for the government to bring it in.
33:08But I want to open it up to all our doctors on this round table today.
33:11We'll start with you, Dr. Nangia.
33:12What is it that you do to ensure that you and your family are better off as compared to, you know, when the pollution gets really bad?
33:20What is it that you are doing?
33:22So, of course, you know, we reduce our outdoor activity to as minimum as possible.
33:27We would probably combine, two or three of us would go together in the car if we're going in the same direction.
33:32And try and avoid going in separate cars, even if it is a gap of, say, half an hour, 30, 45 minutes gap.
33:39You try and club together so that the vehicular load on the roads is also down.
33:44Wear a mask.
33:45N95 mask is something that can provide you protection to the PM 2.5 particle and less.
33:50But unfortunately, it doesn't provide you protection against the toxic gases.
33:54And another word that I want to give off to all the audience here is that people who are already suffering with their diseases like diabetes, hypertension, asthma, COPD, they must keep it under check with regular maintenance therapies.
34:09Whether the asthma pension, they should be on regular inhalers, nebulizers or whatever they're taking.
34:13But they should be in touch with their doctors, keeping their illnesses under complete maintenance.
34:18Right.
34:18Dr. Balbir Singh, since you are the only one here with the mask on you, let me ask you, what is it that you are doing to ensure that you and your family do the right thing this pollution season?
34:31So, what I can suggest is exercise at home because exercise is an important part of life.
34:38So, the very fact that you can't go out should stop you from exercising at home.
34:42Drink a lot of water.
34:44The water reduces inflammation.
34:45Treat your diabetes and cholesterol levels very well because cholesterol adds fire to this inflammation.
34:52So, a high cholesterol is the worst enemy with this.
34:56And smoking and alcohol, both have to be avoided at all costs.
35:00So, simple things.
35:01And if you see somebody burning leaves on the road or in your colony, take strict actions to show that.
35:08Well, in Diwali season, you're asking people to keep control.
35:17You're asking people to not eat and indulge.
35:20And you're asking people to ensure that they exercise at home.
35:23I don't know how much of that is actually going to go down.
35:26Dr. Dhar is with us.
35:28Dr. Dhar, your recommendation and what is it that you do personally?
35:31I have a very simple solution for everyone.
35:35Let us talk about pollution for around 365 days in this country.
35:40We cannot have a solution just for a purpose.
35:43Why do we allow the AQI to go bad?
35:46There are enough and more cars anywhere in America per head.
35:52So, one person has one or two cars.
35:55Their quality is never so poor.
35:58So, why have we allowed this to happen?
36:00Why our roads are not paved the way it should be paved?
36:04So, it's just not vehicular pollution.
36:06We have allowed ourselves to degenerate to a level where we have to call a meeting for a few days to sensitize people about pollution.
36:16Pollution is a 35-day issue rather than a few weeks or a few months.
36:21We are going to have a very terrible winters.
36:24We all know.
36:25But we did not make any changes in our day-to-day lifestyle.
36:29We have never asked our government and governance to deliver what is deliverable.
36:35It is not asking.
36:36We are asking basic things.
36:38And how as an educated person in society, we have not put a point across.
36:44So, me in start out.
36:47This is our genuine.
36:49It affects each one of us.
36:51And it does affect in the worst possible manner.
36:53It increases the cost of living.
36:55If I get an MI, 5 lakh rupees is lost.
36:59So, it is cost burden.
37:01So, as an economist, if I think just not like a doctor, I would see it's a huge loss to this country.
37:07And the effects are very simple and are all doable, which we do not want to do.
37:13And we just want to shun off by not asking what is doable from the government, from the governance as well.
37:20So, I think since I asked all of you, let me tell you what is my sort of pollution toolkit in a way.
37:26My first thing is to get the air purifiers up the minute we hit September.
37:30Air purifiers up in my kids' room, in my house, in my bedroom, and especially at night, because that's when your breathing thing is up.
37:38To take, ensure that you are wearing your N95 mask.
37:41The takeaway that I'm taking from Dr. Singh is that also hydrate, ensure that you're having enough water.
37:46But since I have all of you, a lot of, on Instagram, since everybody is a doctor, it seems, I want to understand, do these drinks that trend sometimes, that this will bring down pollution in your lungs, and this will cleanse your lungs, it will clean away your lungs, does that work, Dr. Nangya?
38:05Is there a magical way in which the lungs can be cleansed out of air pollution?
38:09Do any of these drinks work?
38:12Truly, if you ask me, in one word, none.
38:15None of the drinks, none of the methods, whether it's inhaling pure oxygen, or whether it's some kind of a salt therapy that came up a few years back, none of these therapies can actually work in improving your lung functions, other than good exercise, whether it's yoga, pranayama, deep breathing exercises, using what is called incentive spirometry, you could do that.
38:36You know, certain kind of yoga exercises like alom vilom, kapal bharti, they all improve lung functions.
38:42Yet, they won't protect you from the harms of air pollution.
38:48They will only improve your lung capacity and, you know, your breathing pattern, yes.
38:52Got it.
38:55And, Dr. Singh, then, if I can ask you, this is also the season where a lot of people are eating a lot of dry fruits, our calorie intake is generally higher.
39:05We don't want to dampen everybody's spirit and say that don't have anything, this is the worst time, stay indoors, don't meet people, don't eat food, don't follow any traditions.
39:15We are just saying no to everyone.
39:17Is there a way in which we can tell them to indulge in the right form?
39:24Right.
39:24So, the food doesn't mean that one has to eat unhealthy food to say that this is you.
39:30The taste developed can be for good quality food, which can provide the same kind of structure, same kind of happiness.
39:38So, but indulging in smoking at this time, whether it is Diwali or no Diwali, should never be the aim.
39:45One should forget that and never aim at smoking or drinking.
39:49WHO has made drinking as zero to prevent the cancer.
39:53And we should stick to these norms, whether it is Diwali or not.
39:56There are many methods to celebrate Diwali, not by just smoking and drinking.
40:00All right.
40:02So, there you go.
40:03You have heard it from the doctors, not from Instagram fake profiles or anonymous AI videos.
40:11You've heard it from countries' best doctors today on this roundtable on what pollution is doing to your lungs, to your heart, to your knees.
40:21It's basically not just choking your throat and your nose or your lungs even.
40:25It's choking away your entire lifespan.
40:29And that's what you need to look at.
40:31That is why it is important to find a solution for pollution.
40:35We don't have it yet, but we only hope that the tips that we've shared will help you at least take care and ensure there are no emergencies that emerge just yet.
40:45And, of course, the big takeaway here is the fact that we need to be tracking this problem all year round.
40:51But if those doctors weren't enough to convince you why you should care about pollution, our next guest just might.
41:00Let me bring on Adit Kumar.
41:01He's a 12th grade student.
41:03The project that he's working on is called Exposing Flaws in Delhi's AQI Monitoring.
41:10And he's done several RTI appeals for this as well.
41:14Adit, before I go into your RTI appeals and understand what is it that you found,
41:18first tell me what got you so passionate about air pollution to chase it down.
41:24You're just, you're still in school.
41:26Yes, I am.
41:27I hope I'm audible.
41:29Yes, please go ahead.
41:30Yes.
41:30All right.
41:31So just like the doctors earlier had said, air quality is a really important issue that we all face in our daily lives here in Delhi.
41:38And one of these key things that actually got me interested in this matter, specifically by AQI monitoring,
41:46was the fact that I looked at an AQI app on my phone, and I realized that the closest AQI monitoring station
41:53was saying that the air quality was around 150, 180, a pretty normal amount in the peak winter season in Delhi.
42:01However, when I looked just a few kilometers away, the next AQI sensor was abnormally high.
42:07So particularly, this sensor was located in Gualpadi, which when I tried to track on a map,
42:13was turning out to be a forested area in a very sparsely populated area,
42:18which was nothing in comparison to the city or the part of Purgaon that I live in.
42:22And I started noticing these trends further.
42:26And that's what actually got me interested into monitoring or mapping the monitoring systems
42:30which are in place right now.
42:32Oh, that's interesting.
42:34Actually, that's been a question on all our minds as well.
42:36So what did you find?
42:37You filed a couple of RTIs.
42:39What does it tell you?
42:41Yeah.
42:41So before I started filing the RTIs, actually, my first step was trying to understand
42:46how I could figure out on my own these trends.
42:49So there are approximately 70 plus CAAQMS sensors, which is the current ambient air quality monitoring
42:57systems, which are administered by the CPCB and the state pollution control boards in the
43:02respective regions.
43:04And these 77 of them, or 77 plus, are located across the region.
43:10However, like the location specifically can alter the way that they monitor the AQI.
43:17Like certain AQI sensors have a predominantly lesser AQI reading compared to others.
43:23And this is because of the natural obstructions which are around them.
43:26Maybe forested regions, proximity to trees.
43:29Bad placement, basically.
43:31Exactly.
43:31Bad placement.
43:32And this skews the data that is available to us to make informed decisions.
43:36Oh, you're saying not just bad placement.
43:38It's actually strategic placement to keep AQI figures down.
43:42Ah, I see.
43:43Possibly.
43:44Go ahead.
43:44It could be.
43:45So this is what got me sorted on to filing these RTI applications.
43:50They were sorted off with a more generalistic outlook.
43:53Stuff like how much is the funding in the CAQMS program, which is quite a lot actually, close
43:58to three crores loss I checked for a financial year.
44:01And more nitty gritties into like how each location is actually picked.
44:06I came across a guideline by the CPCB themselves a few years earlier, which stated that they could
44:12not be placed near trees, near direct obstructions over three boundaries.
44:18But they were.
44:19But they were.
44:20Exactly.
44:20So there was another news report that I read, which also reconfirmed this, as well as the
44:26Comptroller Auditor General's report from 2024.
44:29However, when I asked the CPCB for a response, they said that it had not been approved, like
44:34the report had not been approved by the PAG yet.
44:36And hence, action had not been taken, despite it being over almost a year since it has been
44:41published.
44:41So I'm still pursuing it.
44:44And yeah.
44:45Adit, when you look at such absolute apathy, in certain cases, flouting of norms, in certain
44:53ways, sort of wiggling through technicalities.
44:56Your generation, I believe, is the one that cares about environment.
45:01Your generation, I truly believe, is the one who takes pride in saying, let's not burst
45:06crackers.
45:07Even when the elders might be saying, whatever, you guys go on.
45:11Because the entire, you know, Breathe Easy campaign or Right to Breathe was started by kids
45:16in the country.
45:17You guys petitioned to the Supreme Court first to say that we need a graph system.
45:21And there's so much that has happened, to be honest, in the past couple of years.
45:25It's just not enough, but it has happened.
45:28Yeah.
45:29What message do you want to give out to the governments who are perhaps still sleeping on
45:35the matter?
45:37I believe that, honestly speaking, this issue is not something that can be avoided directly.
45:44It has a day-to-day impact on all of our lives.
45:49And it's not just during the winter season, as the doctor said, it's 365 days.
45:54And at the trend that we're going on right now, it does not look like a very sustainable
46:00outlook for the future.
46:02And hence, I do believe action must be taken.
46:05It's not in regards only to the monitoring system to get better data, but also the actions
46:10to actually reduce it.
46:12The graph systems, for example, were an excellent take by the government, I would say, in my opinion,
46:17to try to limit the exposure.
46:19However, it being just in certain time durations when AQI is already high, kind of limits it.
46:25It's a bit more of a reactionary step than something preventative.
46:29And I do believe more preventative measures should be taking place.
46:34All right.
46:35Adit, very good to hear from you.
46:36Always a delight to see that perhaps, if not the current generation, then clearly the future,
46:42hopefully.
46:42Is this something that you would vote on very quickly?
46:45Once you become 18, would that be a driver?
46:48I do believe so.
46:49Yeah.
46:50I feel like the environmental policies of the government is also an important part that
46:55they must take attention or pay attention to.
46:58And I feel this can affect the voting decisions in the future.
47:02All right.
47:03There you go.
47:03You've heard it from Gen Z there, really.
47:06They are the future.
47:07They are the ones controlling.
47:08They are making governments, breaking governments, and here they are asking, in this case, exposing
47:13the flaws of Delhi's AQI monitoring system.
47:17So thank you, Adit, for all that you've done.
47:18We really hope that the experts are able to see this broadcast and do something about this
47:24broken system of even monitoring.
47:26If you're not even monitoring it right, what are we going to do in tackling this solution
47:30altogether?
47:30Thank you so much, Adit.
47:32And a happy safe Diwali to you.
47:34It's the pride of India's tech world, home to global giants and billion-dollar dreams.
47:41But step out onto the streets of Bengaluru and a very different picture emerges.
47:47It is bad roads, mountains of garbage, and endless traffic congestion.
47:52Now, a public spat between Biocon founder Kiran Majunda Shaw, who's a Bengaluru resident, of
47:58course, and the Karnataka government has thrust the city's crumbling infrastructure, as if
48:03we didn't know about it already, into a national spotlight.
48:06We at India Today are obviously asking, is this just another war of words or a wake-up call
48:13for real change?
48:15Take a look at this report and decide for yourself.
48:17Potholes, garbage piling up, traffic choking the streets.
48:40This is Namma Bengaluru, India's tech capital once again in the spotlight, not for innovation,
48:48but infrastructure failure.
48:52It was Biocon founder Kiran Majundaar Shaw who reignited the debate after a visiting international
48:58guest questioned why a city like Bengaluru looked so broken and why can't India get its
49:05act together?
49:05Shaw took to social media, tagging top Karnataka leaders, Chief Minister Siddharamaya, his Deputy
49:13DK Shivakumar, and Priyank Khalge, calling for urgent collective action.
49:18The government hit back, pointing to Rs. 1,100 crore sanction for road repairs.
49:24But the political temperature rose quickly.
49:28Deputy DK Shivakumar questioned Shaw's timing, asking where was she for 25 years.
49:34He reminded her that Bengaluru made her success possible.
49:53Industries Minister M.B. Patil went a step further, suggesting Biocon chief should take
49:59up CSR work in her own area, instead of calling out the government.
50:05Backing Shaw was veteran techie Mohandas Pai.
50:08He said,
50:10While billion-dollar investments like Google's AI data centre are heading to Andhra Pradesh,
50:15Karnataka remains obsessed with caste surveys and appeasement, not development or tech jobs.
50:21BJP too has attacked the Karnataka government for putting politics over people.
50:25What happened to Karnataka? Why the industrialists are looking to other states?
50:34There is no infrastructure. There is no cleanliness. No one is caring for them.
50:42It is arrest. Garbage city.
50:46The message is clear. While Bengaluru powers India's digital economy, its streets tell a different story.
50:57The Silicon Hub's future does not hinge on blame games, but on leadership, civic pride and urgent action.
51:05The question is, can it see tall promises of politicians getting implemented on the ground?
51:11With Sagai Raj in Bengaluru, Bureau Report, India Today.
51:25Let's take a look at some updates coming in.
51:26The Ministry of External Affairs has denied any phone call between U.S. President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Modi on Wednesday.
51:34Earlier, Donald Trump had claimed that Prime Minister Modi had assured him that India would stop buying oil from Russia.
51:41Remember? The reason for the entire tariff issue that emerged between U.S. and India.
51:46Now, in a formal statement that has come in from the Ministry of External Affairs,
51:49they have clarified that India's oil and gas import policies are driven solely by consumer interest in a volatile energy market.
51:59And that, though, they don't answer directly what has happened there.
52:03Did that phone call happen?
52:04The Ministry is saying any phone call has denied that there was any phone call between U.S. President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Modi.
52:13Take a look.
52:13See, on the issue of energy sourcing, we have made a statement.
52:20This was put out in the morning today.
52:23We would request you to look at that particular statement for the questions that you have.
52:28On the question of whether there was a conversation or a telephone call between Prime Minister Modi and President Trump,
52:34I am not aware of any conversation yesterday between the two leaders.
52:43All right.
52:44With that, it's a wrap on this edition of Five Live.
52:46Thank you so much for tuning in.
52:47Have a safe Diwali.
52:49Also, try and breathe easy with all the precautions that we've given you.
52:52But stay tuned to India Today.
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