How Cult Leaders Create Sermons: The Illusion of Divine Inspiration | Chino Ross

Name: How Cult Leaders Create Sermons: The Illusion of Divine Inspiration | Chino Ross | Episode 453
Uploaded: 2025-10-28T13:04:20+00:00
Duration: 1 h 7 min 23 s
Channel: William Branham Historical Research

William Branham Historical Research

2 months ago

John and Chino discuss how ministers—especially in destructive or authoritarian movements—actually come up with their sermons. They trace the evolution of “God told me” preaching from early Pentecostalism through Hobart Freeman, William Branham, and the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation. The conversation explores how anger, narcissism, and audience manipulation fuel sermon creation, how topical preaching replaces real study, and how plagiarism, ghostwriting, and emotional theatrics masquerade as divine revelation. Together, they break down examples such as Billy Graham’s “Thinking Man’s Filter,” William Branham’s mathematical “chant,” and Freeman’s claims of prophetic dictation—revealing how these methods shaped entire movements and misled followers who thought they were hearing from God.

00:00 Introduction
01:04 How Cult Ministers Choose Sermon Topics
04:02 The Psychology of Anger in the Pulpit
06:14 How Ministers Justify “God Gave Me This Message”
10:21 The Dangers of Topical Sermons
13:45 Misusing Verses to Prove Doctrines
17:23 The Rise of the New Apostolic Reformation
19:03 The Billy Graham and William Branham “Thinking Man’s Filter” Example
24:34 Hobart Freeman’s Sermon Evolution and Manipulation
32:01 How Anti-Education Theology Breeds Ignorance
33:11 The Audience’s Role in Shaping Cult Sermons
35:59 “Hotline to Heaven”: When Ministers Claim God Spoke Directly
37:03 Hobart Freeman’s “Prophetic Sermon” Method
42:14 William Branham’s Chanting and Summoning “Inspiration”
45:24 How False Prophets Validate Themselves Through Prophecy
50:26 Why “Confirmed Messages” Trap Congregations
52:06 Ghostwriters, Sermon Teams, and Manufactured Revelation
56:00 The Difference Between Prophets and Modern Ministers
59:04 How Real Biblical Study Keeps Preachers Grounded
1:04:00 False Authority: The Danger of “God Said” Preaching
1:06:02 Closing and Resources
______________________
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Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
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00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,

00:00:48pastor and the voice of the Understanding Scripture and Truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel.

00:00:54Cheno, the topic for today is one that I am going to have a lot of fun with.

00:00:58I hope I get to talk a little bit today.

00:01:03Well, you hit me up with this, and I have so much to say.

00:01:05I don't know that I'll be able to constrain myself to one hour.

00:01:09So the topic that you posed is how do ministers come up with their sermons?

00:01:14So I grew up in this cult, which was a very, very destructive cult.

00:01:19And if people who are outside looking in don't understand what this means, it means usually

00:01:26sermons are designed for scorn.

00:01:29That is usually what happens in a destructive cult.

00:01:32People are angry at the world, and they're angry at the outside world.

00:01:36So they try to preach to the inside, and they preach at the outside, which doesn't make it

00:01:41very inviting if you are a sinner who's wondering about Jesus Christ and have never heard the

00:01:47name Jesus Christ.

00:01:48You're not very – it's not a very inviting environment for you to come into.

00:01:52But I can recall one of – this is probably the sermon that inspired me down this path

00:01:58of research, which I have done.

00:02:00You and I haven't talked about this.

00:02:02I've actually done a lot of research into how did they come up with these sermons?

00:02:06Why did they come up with these topics?

00:02:09But I can recall being in a service where the minister was just angry at the world.

00:02:16And it was a little bit unusual for me because we went to a lot of churches where we were hearing

00:02:22past recordings where the minister was angry at the 1960s world.

00:02:27But this was a minister angry at the current world.

00:02:30So as a child, I'm fascinated.

00:02:32Oh my gosh, he's angry at things that I know about.

00:02:35And it turns out something had happened to him between the waitress and him at the restaurant,

00:02:42and he preached an entire sermon at that restaurant and that waitress.

00:02:47And so being angry at the world, he started talking about the sins of the waitress and the

00:02:53way she was dressing, acting, I mean the whole bit, right?

00:02:57And towards the end of it, you just felt like you never really wanted to go to that restaurant.

00:03:02You could tell which one he was talking about.

00:03:04So it was an advertisement against one of my favorite restaurants.

00:03:08So now I'm in this weird conundrum.

00:03:10I'm really excited he's preaching at things for today's world.

00:03:16But now I'm wondering, oh no, what if my parents never take me back there?

00:03:20They had the best desserts, man.

00:03:22So I'm in this weird world that is shaped by a person who is angry at the world.

00:03:27And where I will head with that is usually when you're in a destructive cult of personality,

00:03:35the central figure has a narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic tendencies.

00:03:43And whenever the people under this type of leadership are constantly indoctrinated by narcissism,

00:03:51it's weird because each person underneath becomes a, even if they don't have the disorder,

00:03:56they become a miniature narcissist.

00:03:58And as those people rise up into leadership and positions as pastors, et cetera,

00:04:04some of that comes out from under the rocks like spiders whenever they get angry at something.

00:04:12And you'll just hear anger preached from the pulpit.

00:04:14So I don't know where you're headed with this, but I'm headed with usually it comes out of anger.

00:04:19I really do wonder if people have ever thought, where does my pastor come up with his sermon topic?

00:04:29I preached my first sermons, John, back when I was in my early 20s.

00:04:33I'm in my late 60s now.

00:04:35So I preached a lot of sermons.

00:04:37And if I had to do over again, I preached some of those early ones way differently than I did.

00:04:44I would do them more like I do today.

00:04:46But, you know, you live and learn.

00:04:48But where does your local minister come up with his topic?

00:04:54I think, for the most part, whatever subject is on his mind during the week.

00:05:00I mean, as soon as he gets through preaching on Sunday,

00:05:03by the time Monday morning rolls around, he's already thinking,

00:05:07oh, no, I've got to come up with something else to say about a week from now.

00:05:11And so he begins to think about that.

00:05:14You know, in seminary, you have whole classes.

00:05:16You have whole sections of your seminary study on homiletics, what to preach, how to preach, how to prepare.

00:05:23But I think your average minister, Bible teacher, your Christian minister, just begins marinating on Monday.

00:05:34What can I say?

00:05:36What can I share?

00:05:37What can I preach?

00:05:38You know, they get in a—it's a real grind, if you do it that way, to always have to come up with something new to say.

00:05:46And so as he just goes through the week, you know, I've heard enough sermons.

00:05:50I've been in enough churches.

00:05:52I've listened to even Hobart enough to know that, you know, if you're in the barber shop on Tuesday and you see Larry and you and Larry are talking,

00:05:59he tells you some story.

00:06:01Ah, gave you an idea.

00:06:03So you go track that down, find some Bible verses.

00:06:06And, you know, now you're working on a sermon.

00:06:09You've got sermon preparation for the upcoming weekend.

00:06:13You know, when I think of how that probably takes place for a lot of ministers,

00:06:18it actually shows in the congregation this real deep belief in the divine, providential, sovereign control by God of your minister for that week.

00:06:29Because that means the whole process of your biblical learning is governed by what your preacher does and thinks during that week.

00:06:37So when you come to church, if it is a non-charismatic church, then the preacher, when he stands up to preach,

00:06:47he might say something like, God has laid on my heart a certain idea or God has laid on my heart a certain verse.

00:06:56And then he goes on to preach from that.

00:06:59If you go to a charismatic church, it's normally a little more direct than that.

00:07:04And you'll hear the minister say something along the line of, God spoke to me this week.

00:07:10And that is just a, that is a regular, recurring, every day of the week phrase that you hear in the charismatic movement with these ministers.

00:07:23That the Holy Spirit said to me this week, blah, blah, blah.

00:07:28You'll hear Hagen say it, Copeland say it, Freeman would say it, God told me, God spoke to me, God said.

00:07:34This is where it gets, I think, potentially dangerous.

00:07:39That's kind of somewhat of a lightweight phrase to throw around, but it has heavyweight consequences.

00:07:47Because you're telling us that God, God, God has actually told you something, that he actually said something to you this week.

00:07:55They probably mean it more like the non-charismatic minister that they had a thought in their mind and they're assuming that God laid that on their heart.

00:08:05But they just want to bring more authority to what they are about to say.

00:08:11So they say, God told me this.

00:08:13And so what you end up with generally are what I call topical sermons.

00:08:19It's the topical sermon approach.

00:08:24And so if you get anywhere near, for instance, Mother's Day, you know, if you go to church, you know what you're going to hear.

00:08:30You're going to hear a Mother's Day sermon.

00:08:33Or if you get anywhere near Easter, that time of year in the spring, you're going to hear some type of message on the resurrection of Christ.

00:08:41And the same is true for everything else.

00:08:43If you get near Christmas, you're going to hear something from the early chapters in either Matthew or Luke's gospel.

00:08:50And, you know, today there is almost a national day for everything under the sun.

00:08:56Back in the good old days, you just had a handful of holidays and that was it.

00:09:00Now there's a national, you know, you name it, son's day, daughter's day, grandparents' day, mom day, dad day, cat day, dog day.

00:09:09I mean, there's a day for everything now.

00:09:12And this is the normal minister's approach.

00:09:15So here is Hobart's copy of his tape list from January of 1985.

00:09:22So one month after he died.

00:09:24And here are just a couple of examples from Hobart's list.

00:09:31For instance, under one series, this is tape number F134.

00:09:38It's entitled The Three Steps for Possessing the Land.

00:09:42That's a topical sermon, The Three Steps for Possessing the Land.

00:09:46I have not heard that recently, so I can't tell you what the three steps are.

00:09:50But it's probably something like, well, claim it and then confess it and then go act on it.

00:09:56And those would be the three steps for possessing the land.

00:09:59And he would probably, I can't say with certainty on this because, as I said, I haven't heard that message recently.

00:10:05But he would probably pull something, a verse out of Joshua, which is when and where they went and possessed the land.

00:10:12And they'll read that.

00:10:13He'll read that verse and then he'll give you what the Lord has given him to give to you,

00:10:18the three steps for possessing the land.

00:10:20Here's another one entitled, this is just five tapes later, Seven Steps to Victorious Living.

00:10:28You know, there's not five or nine.

00:10:31There are seven steps to victorious living.

00:10:35And if people out there, John, are wondering, well, what's wrong with that?

00:10:38Well, there are just, there are so many things wrong with that.

00:10:41Let's say that brother and sister, loyal member of faith assembly.

00:10:47And there were tons of loyal people in that church who loved the Lord and who were there for good reasons.

00:10:52And so they're in church and they hear this message, Seven Steps to Victorious Faith.

00:11:01And they're looking at why they're still driving a clunker car out in the driveway and they don't have a Cadillac like Hobart does.

00:11:10And so you're just always working these people up.

00:11:13And honey, there's just, here's what we did wrong.

00:11:16You know, we missed that fifth step.

00:11:18If we'll go back and do one, two, three, four, and get five in there and then do six and seven,

00:11:24then all these things that Hobart has been promising us, prosperity and health and everything,

00:11:30all these things, they'll come to us if we do these seven steps.

00:11:35I just think there are all kinds of things wrong with that.

00:11:39And so my point in this part of our discussion today, John, is that this type of approach to preaching,

00:11:50and let me just say, I think topical sermons are okay occasionally.

00:11:54There is a topic that needs to be addressed and you want to preach a sermon on it.

00:11:58You know, I don't make any laws because I don't have any laws to make.

00:12:02There are no laws to make.

00:12:03You want to preach a topical sermon, go right ahead, and I wouldn't fault you for it.

00:12:09If that's your normal, regular approach, which it is for a lot of people, and it was for Hobart,

00:12:14it allows that preacher to pull verses out of the context to support their point.

00:12:24We've talked about this in other contexts prior to today, but this is exactly what ends up happening.

00:12:31So, for instance, John, we talked last time about Psalm 91.

00:12:34We did a whole podcast on Psalm 91, and I kind of compared it and tried to bring together the two Psalms that I think were meant to go together,

00:12:44Psalm 90 and Psalm 91.

00:12:46So, in Psalm 90, in verse 10, it talks about living for 70 years if by reason of strength for 80 years.

00:12:54And so, what you would hear Hobart always say is, you know, I'm not dying before the age 70 because I've got a verse.

00:13:02Psalm 90, verse 10.

00:13:03I can live to be 70, and if I'm really strong, I can live to be 80.

00:13:08And you go back and just read that verse, and you only read the first half, not the second part,

00:13:12that describes how miserable your 70 or 80 years will be while you live.

00:13:17It's just in toil and conflict because that's just the way human existence is.

00:13:23You think you have a verse that promises you 70-year lifespan, but it's taken out of the context.

00:13:30And we talked about the context at the end of our last interview, so I'm not going to do that again.

00:13:35But it takes it out of the context of that Psalm.

00:13:38And you know what's interesting that I didn't get to say last time?

00:13:43Hobart died at the age of 64 and a half.

00:13:47That didn't work for him because it's not a promise.

00:13:50It's not a promise in the Bible that you can go and drive a stake in and say,

00:13:55I'm making my claim.

00:13:56I'm going to live to be at least 70.

00:13:57It's just a general statement that that is about the lifespan of a person.

00:14:04And if you have really good health and good genes, you may live to be 80.

00:14:09But if you read everything before that verse and everything after that verse,

00:14:13you'll see the context isn't some glorious promise that I am guaranteed to live to the age of 70.

00:14:20The statement is, even if you make it to 80, your life is a very, very difficult life.

00:14:28That's the whole context of Psalm 90.

00:14:30Hence, we need to put our trust in God.

00:14:33Or to give you another example, let's say a person has this thing sticking out, protruding,

00:14:41pushing their skin out down around their waistline.

00:14:44We call it a hernia.

00:14:46They have this thing that's sticking out there and that it's painful.

00:14:51And so according to Freeman theology, that was covered by Christ's atonement on the cross.

00:14:58That hernia is covered by the atonement.

00:15:03That is a part of the biblical New Testament message of divine healing.

00:15:09And so you simply claim your healing for that by the laying on of hands or just by a confession of faith.

00:15:17And then you go confess it.

00:15:19You act on it.

00:15:20And you endure for however long you have to endure and see if the thing ever clears up.

00:15:26And to get you to do that, he'll say, remember, 2 Corinthians 5, 7.

00:15:34For we walk by faith and not by sight, not by what we see.

00:15:39We walk by faith, not by what we see.

00:15:42That is a verse hijacked from its context.

00:15:45I would recommend anyone go read the first half of 2 Corinthians 5.

00:15:49And it's talking about death and awaiting the resurrection body.

00:15:54It's not talking about divine healing at all.

00:15:56So whenever you have a topical sermon, like Hobart does all the time, you have a thing you want to prove.

00:16:06Now you need some verses to support it.

00:16:09That is a very dangerous way to go about it because what happens is you lose that built-in contextual control of the meaning of the passage.

00:16:21If you are studying that in its context, you have already seen the verses that lead up to it and the verses that follow it.

00:16:30And consequently, you have that passage within its context.

00:16:33Whenever you preach like so many of these Pentecostal charismatic preachers do,

00:16:39Hebrews 13, 8, Jesus Christ is saying yesterday, today, and forever.

00:16:43If he healed back then, he'll heal today.

00:16:46It doesn't work exactly like that because I know the children of Israel went across the Red Sea on dry land back then.

00:16:54That does not mean you can expect to do that today.

00:16:57So be careful, I would say, to people who follow ministers who only preach topically, as Hobart primarily did,

00:17:06because that method allows them to pull that verse out of the contextual control that that verse is meant to have.

00:17:14Absolutely.

00:17:16And like I said, I've got so much to say.

00:17:20In the late 90s, mid 90s, I think it was 1996, if I remember correctly,

00:17:26C. Peter Wagner declared this labyrinth of different collective apostolic movements and networks

00:17:35and coined the term New Apostolic Reformation,

00:17:38which was describing something that preexisted, not something that was being established or created.

00:17:46The NAR, NAR, fully existed by that point in time.

00:17:50And what it was, was this network wherein many ministers were collaborating with,

00:17:56reading from, watching sermons by, visiting conferences

00:18:02to learn more from all of these different people in the network.

00:18:07And so what happened, and you can trace this back as far as you want to go,

00:18:12especially if you're looking during the years when Voice of Healing revivals,

00:18:15when that movement started spreading and all of these men started collaborating,

00:18:19you have this weird thing where not a single source for a single doctrine can be identified.

00:18:27They're all kind of learning, I call it cross-pollination.

00:18:31They're all kind of learning from each other, and one guy will say something,

00:18:34well, another guy takes that and he says,

00:18:36oh, well, if I combine that with my thought, I can do this other thing.

00:18:41Compound the complexity of that with what you just said about these topical sermons.

00:18:47In that movement, it was very, I don't know what the word is,

00:18:52it was very appealing to the audiences.

00:18:53If you told a story about, I went to the restaurant and had this bad experience with so-and-so,

00:19:00not always negative.

00:19:01When this thing started, they were always good experience.

00:19:04I went to the grocery store and the Lord spoke to me and said,

00:19:08pick up the ketchup bottle.

00:19:09I mean, that's kind of how this went.

00:19:12Well, then another guy, oh, that ketchup bottle, God told me it must be Heinz.

00:19:16And then the third guy, oh, you got to have mustard with that ketchup.

00:19:19I mean, it kind of grew and developed like this.

00:19:22So when people today, scholars, in fact, some of them contact me and they'll say,

00:19:26where did this doctrine originate?

00:19:28And you can't really point to a source.

00:19:30What you can do is point to a movement.

00:19:32It all kind of developed through this movement.

00:19:36So here's where the problem lies.

00:19:38You had that type of development of doctrines.

00:19:41But then as the movement began to grow and they started fighting with each other internally,

00:19:47and you had this massive group of people, some of which had narcissistic personality disorders,

00:19:55most of which were in a group that had no guidelines or rules to prevent cult groups from forming.

00:20:03They all began to start all of these cults, and each of them had these doctrines that were learned by cross-pollination.

00:20:11And many of these people would say, God spoke to me, and here's my new doctrine.

00:20:16Well, he had heard it from the guy before at the conference just yesterday, you know.

00:20:21An example of this, Billy Graham preached this sermon called Thinking Man's Filter.

00:20:27Where did Billy Graham get the sermon?

00:20:29He watched a television commercial where there is a cigarette that's called the Thinking Man's Filter.

00:20:35And he preached a whole sermon about this commercial that he watched on TV, probably in his hotel room.

00:20:40So if you're asking, where did Billy Graham get the sermon?

00:20:42He got it from television.

00:20:44And he got it probably as he's thinking, I don't have any sermon content.

00:20:48What am I going to talk about?

00:20:50Oh, well, that's a good topic.

00:20:52That's a cigarette package.

00:20:53I'll talk about this.

00:20:54So then, not long after, weeks, maybe months, William Branham comes along and says, I heard

00:21:02that sermon the other day by Billy Graham called Thinking Man's Filter.

00:21:06Oh, what a wonderful sermon it was.

00:21:09And then he proceeded to preach the same sermon, but with his own spin on it.

00:21:13And years, maybe months, not even years, months went by, and he started speaking to different

00:21:21audiences.

00:21:22Well, the other thing that people don't realize is when you have a traveling minister, they

00:21:27have a repertoire of these sermons.

00:21:30And it's the same sermon.

00:21:31They're just, you know, they might preach it one way here and then might go to a restaurant

00:21:36and get angry at the waitress here.

00:21:38Then they're going to preach it again with the angry waitress story, and it's going to build

00:21:41and grow.

00:21:42Well, the way in which this developed was Billy Graham saw a commercial and preached

00:21:47a sermon.

00:21:48William Branham, in one of the networked, you know, collaborative efforts, he listened to

00:21:54the sermon by Billy Graham.

00:21:55He preached it.

00:21:56Then it morphed into an angel came down as I was walking through the woods, and I stumbled

00:22:02along, and I saw a cigarette package, and what did it say?

00:22:06I wanted to pick it up, but those things are filthy.

00:22:09I can't pick it up.

00:22:10So I just read it, and then I walked off, and he preached the sermon.

00:22:14Then a few years later, the angel had him pick it up, and I held it in my hand.

00:22:19And so the story just kind of grew and grew from I heard a Billy Graham sermon to an angel

00:22:25of God came down and visited me on the face of the planet.

00:22:29And so the world I grew up in, I never knew those series of events.

00:22:35All I knew was the last one.

00:22:37I knew that an angel of God had come down and told him to pick up a pack of cigarettes, and

00:22:42it said, Thanking Man's Filter.

00:22:43This is one of his more popular sermons, believe it or not.

00:22:47And it's one that I've listened to probably 200, 300 times in my life.

00:22:52I've listened to it over and over and over again.

00:22:54Had no idea the backstory.

00:22:55But I could give you story after story after story where the sermons aren't really coming

00:23:03as divinely inspired as the people are claiming.

00:23:06I use the Branham example.

00:23:08Take any of the other people that I've researched.

00:23:10Look at Mike Bickle and his wild sermon examples.

00:23:14The Black Horse Prophecy is probably one of the biggest ones if you're one of the IHOPKC fans.

00:23:19Look at the progression of events that led to that, and you'll start to realize that it

00:23:24wasn't so much that God came down with a vision or inspiration or whatnot.

00:23:28There was a clear, calculated series of events that led to preaching that sermon.

00:23:34You know, Hobart traveled the first eight years of his charismatic ministry from 1966 to 1974.

00:23:42So he was able to repeat the sermons, you know, just as you said.

00:23:46If you're traveling, you can have the faith formula message, and you can preach it in Dallas,

00:23:51and you can preach it in Miami, and you can preach it back in your home church in Indiana.

00:23:55But eventually, he did settle down.

00:23:591976 was really the last year he did any traveling.

00:24:02And for the next eight years, he was only there, his own church, faith assembly in Indiana.

00:24:08So when that happens, you obviously can't repeat yourself.

00:24:13And so one of the ways to help yourself, and one of the ways, and I'll say it's an excellent way,

00:24:19it's probably the best way to prevent this cycle of topical sermon approach,

00:24:27is to preach through a passage or passages, or even better, preach through books of the Bible.

00:24:32And so this is what Hobart began doing.

00:24:36Just on the New Testament, I can think that he preached the book of Romans.

00:24:43And when I say he preached, I mean he started in the first chapter and went all the way through the book.

00:24:47Well, he preached Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, Titus, Hebrews, James, 1 John, Jude, and Revelation.

00:25:06That's just off the top of my head, what I can think, what I can remember,

00:25:10just of New Testament books that he preached his way through.

00:25:14And so when he began doing that, I was, as a young person, again, when he was teaching Acts and Romans,

00:25:22this was back when I was a teenager.

00:25:24Actually, he taught Acts before I was even aware of Hobart.

00:25:28He was preaching Romans about the time I was introduced to Dr. Freeman's ministry.

00:25:34And I had heard the basic generic stuff.

00:25:38If you look at any of his series on faith or the deeper life, the first 5 or 10 or 12 or 15 or whatever, those go back a long time.

00:25:48They're all generic.

00:25:49They're all basic.

00:25:50They're all this wild, super spiritual kind of stuff.

00:25:54But I had already heard that and had kind of grown tired of that.

00:25:59So when I saw that he was going to preach through a book of the Bible, I was very excited, John, to buy those tapes and to listen.

00:26:09Because then I thought, well, now I will know this book better, this book of the Bible, this book of the New Testament.

00:26:16Now I will know it better.

00:26:17So I'll never forget, I was 18 years old and he was preaching the series on Romans.

00:26:23And here is from 50 years ago, whenever I would listen to something, here are my typed notes.

00:26:30These are all my typed notes of 38 tapes that he did on the book of Romans.

00:26:37You know, I have a cover page that I typed up for it and everything.

00:26:42And I'll never forget how I was able to obtain this series of tapes.

00:26:46I'm 17, maybe 18 years old.

00:26:50I don't have any money, but I'm really hungry to learn God's word.

00:26:55But what I did have, and I could just shoot myself in the temple for what I did.

00:27:02What I did have is I had a nice coin collection.

00:27:07And I mean, I had silver.

00:27:08I had silver in my coin collection.

00:27:10I worked at a motorhome lot for a summer job between high school classes.

00:27:17And I had somebody, a fellow employee there, when he found out that I had this coin collection,

00:27:23because I had collected coins since I was young.

00:27:25I just, and I was young then, I mean, since I was a child.

00:27:28I loved, you know, old buffalo nickels and Roosevelt dimes and the feather or the wheat pennies.

00:27:37I collected all of that stuff.

00:27:39So I had this nice coin collection.

00:27:42I sold that coin collection to my employee for a hundred bucks, just so I had enough money.

00:27:51And I know what I did.

00:27:52I took that hundred dollars and I went and bought the Roman series.

00:27:56And so I have all of these notes from 50 years ago.

00:27:59I'd sit down and write it out longhand.

00:28:01And then I go back and on an old manual typewriter, I'd peck it all out.

00:28:05And I'd have, so I'd have a typed, a little booklet of what Hobart said on those 38 tapes.

00:28:13But as I listened to these, here's what I soon found out.

00:28:18He wasn't really going to teach me what Roman said.

00:28:22What he was really going to do is he was going to use that book as well as the other books that he preached from just to put a new dress on an old worn out topic.

00:28:33So, for instance, when you get to Romans 10 and verse 17, now we hear, if you want to get faith in your life, the way you get faith is you have to listen to the word of God.

00:28:45That means don't ever miss any of the meetings here at the glory barn.

00:28:49That means make sure you buy all of my cassette tapes, because if you listen to the word of God, the more you listen, the more your faith will grow.

00:28:59He tells this story about a woman who had cancer, who was dying of cancer, who got his faith series or a faith tape.

00:29:08And he loves to tell the story.

00:29:10She didn't, brothers and sisters, listen to that a dozen times or 20 times or 30 or 80 or 90.

00:29:19She listened to that message 100 times.

00:29:22She wore the tape out and she wore the cancer out, too.

00:29:27And that is Romans 10, 17.

00:29:30The more you listen to me preach, the more faith you will have.

00:29:35Well, come on.

00:29:36And, you know, that is simply, it's either not true or it's not verifiable.

00:29:43I don't know the lady.

00:29:44She was never paraded in front of the church.

00:29:47She lived on the East Coast somewhere.

00:29:49I never got to verify the story.

00:29:52And so I really grew disillusioned as I would continue to buy some new series that Hobart was going to be teaching on and go through it.

00:30:01And then I came to figure out, I kind of know where he's going to set up camp in this chapter.

00:30:08I would guess that before I ever listen to the message.

00:30:12I know where he's going to set up camp.

00:30:14He's going to set up camp by a favorite verse of his so that he can preach a favorite topic of his.

00:30:21So was it really teaching through the book and educating us on what the book meant?

00:30:29Not really.

00:30:29It was still the topical sermon, just looking for a new dress on an old lady.

00:30:34Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:30:47You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:30:55On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:31:09You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:31:15If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.

00:31:22And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

00:31:29On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:31:33I find it interesting that a lot of the movements that spawned out of the post-World War II healing revival, because they were against seminaries, and they were like, you've made the joke, and Branham made the joke, everybody who is in this movement made the joke, they're cemeteries.

00:31:49They're people who are going to a cold, dark grave of religion.

00:31:54That's how, that's really what the movement taught.

00:31:57But along with this comes something else.

00:31:59When you're teaching people that if you go to a higher level education to learn theology, and it's of the devil, people begin to associate that with other forms of higher learning.

00:32:11And in the more destructive branches that came from this movement, some of the children aren't even allowed to go past grade school.

00:32:20Some of them aren't allowed to go to grade school.

00:32:22So you have this vast number of people who aren't really educated.

00:32:27And one of the things that I highly recommend to anybody who is in this type of movement, if you're curious how the sermons came to be, and you want to demystify it.

00:32:38Because in the way in which these people present their sermons, they present it as though they have this clear connection.

00:32:46It's like a phone line to God.

00:32:48But God has come, and many of them will call it my message.

00:32:52They will refer to their sermon as my message as though God called them on the phone and gave them a message to give the people.

00:32:59It's a hotline to heaven.

00:33:00It's a hotline to heaven, man.

00:33:02I recommend to anybody who wants to demystify how a sermon works, just simply go to, you can even do this at one of the local universities or colleges, just take a speech class.

00:33:15When you're in a speech class and you start speaking, doing any form of public speaking, you watch and feel the audience reaction.

00:33:24And whenever words are spoken that entertains them, their face will light up.

00:33:29Whenever you say something that's boring and dull, you'll watch them falling asleep.

00:33:33Well, a minister molds his sermons after this.

00:33:36When he sees people light up, you go, oh, that's entertaining.

00:33:40Next sermon.

00:33:41And as he's talking, I've done this.

00:33:43As you're speaking to the people, you're taking mental note.

00:33:47Oh, they really liked it when I hit that topic.

00:33:49I need to preach that one.

00:33:51I wasn't a preacher.

00:33:52I was a speaker.

00:33:52But I need to speak about that one next time I speak.

00:33:56And that's really how a lot of this develops.

00:33:58It's interaction by the crowd.

00:34:01So in this ironic way, and this is a topic that Bob Scott and I have talked about.

00:34:06In this weird, ironic way, these cult groups are actually molded by the people who are listening themselves.

00:34:13They play a role in this as much as the person who's ran off the rails.

00:34:17Yeah, and, you know, I think people in their mind, John, they think, I want something fresh.

00:34:24And so when you hear a minister say that he's got a hotline to heaven, and he doesn't have to use that terminology.

00:34:30Just it's very subtle, but it's done frequently where the minister says, well, I was praying this week and the Lord spoke to me.

00:34:39Well, as soon as we hear the Lord spoke to anybody, you know, he spoke to Jeremiah and Isaiah, and I really want to know what he said.

00:34:44So as soon as I hear the Lord talk to anybody, I mean, if you told me, John, God talked to you yesterday, you heard his voice.

00:34:52You know what?

00:34:53I'd be the first one in line.

00:34:55I'd want to know, well, what did he say?

00:34:57What did he actually tell you?

00:34:58If he talked, you said he talked to you this week.

00:35:02I mean, I'm talking now.

00:35:03This is what we mean by talking.

00:35:05If you had some kind of internal impression, and I don't think those are invalid.

00:35:10We all have internal thoughts and impressions.

00:35:12But if that's what you had, let's be clear.

00:35:16Let's be very clear.

00:35:17I'm talking.

00:35:18You're talking.

00:35:18When you say God spoke or God talked, this is talking.

00:35:21This is speaking.

00:35:23Mental impression is something entirely different.

00:35:26People say, well, what I liked about Hobart, it was all fresh.

00:35:30What I liked about William Branham, it was all fresh.

00:35:33That's not fresh.

00:35:35It's recycled.

00:35:36It's worn out, and it's stale.

00:35:38If you want something fresh, go to the Bible.

00:35:42It's the living word of God.

00:35:45Go to the Bible.

00:35:46It's been there 2,000 years.

00:35:48We pick it up and read it, and we are still learning.

00:35:51It is still fresh.

00:35:54So let's go a little further with Dr. Freeman, though.

00:35:57He had another very alarming way to come up with messages.

00:36:03And we're going to need to play a few clips for this one, John, because I want the people

00:36:08to hear.

00:36:09I'm just going to give a couple of examples, but it's on all of the early years of his ministry

00:36:17messages.

00:36:18You will hear this same kind of thing, and you can tell that it is frequent just by the clips

00:36:25we're going to play.

00:36:26So the first one is from a message taught at the Glory Barn in 1974 entitled, The Formula

00:36:36for Faith.

00:36:37And just look at the titles of all of these messages, The Formula for Faith.

00:36:41And it's just, he had something he wanted to say, and on that particular evening or morning,

00:36:49that was the formula.

00:36:51Well, two years later, the formula is going to be different.

00:36:53You know, at one point in your ministry, there are three steps to faith, and later, there

00:36:59are six steps, and other times are 12 steps, you know.

00:37:04So in the formula of faith, at the very beginning, I mean, all people have to do is find the message

00:37:10and begin listening for the first 45 seconds, if you could play that for our audience.

00:37:16I'd like for you to turn with me to Luke chapter 17, verses 5 and 6, and the message that the

00:37:25Lord has given me to share is the formula for faith, the formula for faith.

00:37:33Often when I need a message, I do what the Lord told me to do back, I think it was in 67.

00:37:38He said to me that whenever I needed a message, just sit down, and He would give it to me.

00:37:46I've prophesied a lot of messages and preached them.

00:37:49In fact, I used to minister every Wednesday night through prophecy.

00:37:53Now, I taught, but I got the prophecy in the afternoon.

00:37:56All I had to do was wait on it.

00:37:58I prophesied and came and taught the prophecy, because it was a teaching prophecy.

00:38:01Okay, John, so you don't always get to hear and see all of this, because I spring some of this on you.

00:38:08How alarming and dangerous on so many levels is what we just heard.

00:38:18Here's what we heard.

00:38:19I actually have it transcribed.

00:38:22He begins this message by saying, I'd like for you to turn with me to Luke chapter 17, verses 5 and 6.

00:38:29And the message, and listen to this phrase, this is throughout Hobart's ministry, that the Lord has given me to share.

00:38:40And I hope the Lord has given it, but when you hear that phrase all the time, the Lord has given me this message, who are we to say that He didn't?

00:38:50So this is a message from the Lord, the formula for faith, the formula for faith.

00:38:55But often, when I need a message, I do what the Lord told me to do back, I think it was 67.

00:39:03He means 1967.

00:39:05He said to me, He said to me, that whenever I needed a message, just sit down and He would give it to me.

00:39:16I prophesied a lot of messages and preached them.

00:39:19In fact, I used to minister every Wednesday night through prophecy.

00:39:25Now, I taught, but I got the prophecy in the afternoon.

00:39:29All I had to do was wait on it.

00:39:32I prophesied and came and taught the prophecy because it was a teaching prophecy.

00:39:38I haven't found that phrase anywhere in the Bible, that that was a teaching prophecy.

00:39:43How alarming and how dangerous on every level.

00:39:46So, He already tells us that it's the afternoon of an evening when He needs to speak.

00:39:52And He doesn't even have a message.

00:39:53Just as you said earlier, you know, Billy Graham's in the hotel room.

00:39:57What am I going to talk about to the crusade tonight?

00:39:59No preparation.

00:40:00Nothing's been done.

00:40:01Last minute.

00:40:02I need a message.

00:40:04And so, He said, oh yeah, I remember.

00:40:06God told him.

00:40:08I don't know how God told him.

00:40:09I don't know what His voice sounded like.

00:40:11What kind of words God used, Hebrew, Greek, English, maybe King James English.

00:40:17I'm not for sure.

00:40:18What He used to talk to Hobart in 1967 and told Hobart, if you ever need a message.

00:40:25I mean, how wonderful would this be for any minister?

00:40:29If you ever need a message, I'll give one to you.

00:40:33All you got to do is just begin prophesying, prophesying in His study to Himself.

00:40:40I've never heard of anything so alarming and so bizarre and so unbiblical and so unscriptural.

00:40:48Prophecy is you prophesy to other people for edification, exhortation, and comfort.

00:40:53Here, He's going to prophesy to Himself in the afternoon.

00:40:58So, you're sitting there, you know, He's praying to the Lord.

00:41:00And I am not mocking Hobart Freeman, but I don't think this is a valid way to go about getting a sermon.

00:41:08He's praying to the Lord.

00:41:09Lord, you told me in 1967 if I needed a message, and I need one.

00:41:14I've been traveling all this week.

00:41:16I don't have anything fresh.

00:41:17I don't have anything to say.

00:41:18I need a message.

00:41:20Lord, give me a message.

00:41:22He waits on it.

00:41:23Therefore, thus saith the Lord.

00:41:24And He begins prophesying, and He writes this out.

00:41:28He's prophesying to Himself.

00:41:29Yea, I say unto thee, my children, that thou must have greater faith than thou hast had in the past.

00:41:36He's prophesying all this.

00:41:38He writes it down.

00:41:39He finds a few verses that will go with that.

00:41:43He shows up that night, and that is the teaching that He delivers to the people.

00:41:48That is not a healthy situation.

00:41:51That's pretty weird, man.

00:41:53But I think I can one-up you in this case.

00:41:57Like I said, I have studied this to no end.

00:42:00I have studied this in ways in which people will never study how and why the brain works as it does in these cult leaders.

00:42:08William Branham was trying to find the source of how he would come up with his sermons and his content.

00:42:14And the way that he presented it was much like you said.

00:42:17It was always the Lord spoke to me and gave me this message for you, the people.

00:42:21And I knew that wasn't the case whenever he's copying Billy Graham and others.

00:42:25That's just, you know, he's lying out of his teeth.

00:42:30But there's this one instance where he says, I was sitting up in a tree somewhere.

00:42:34And the background of the story is he liked to go hunting on the funding of the church.

00:42:42And so he would go on these ridiculous hunting excursions, which were very expensive, by the way.

00:42:48But he says, I was sitting up in a tree somewhere thinking, Lord, what can I do today?

00:42:53What will you give me for your children?

00:42:56In other words, Lord, I need a sermon, and I haven't got one.

00:42:59And here I am out in the woods, not preparing like a minister should be.

00:43:03I'm out in the woods.

00:43:05What should I say?

00:43:07And then he says, and what I do to bring his presence near, he says, I start, and he's literally, if you go listen,

00:43:16I recommend listening to what the man says and then reading it.

00:43:19Because he starts talking about how he gets into a chanting session where he's literally trying to summon God,

00:43:27like you would in spiritualism.

00:43:30And he says, I start chanting, two times two equals four.

00:43:33Two times two.

00:43:34And he's doing this in his breath.

00:43:35Two times two equals four.

00:43:37And he keeps doing it until he says, the Holy Spirit came down because I knew basic mathematics.

00:43:44And it's funny when you read the transcript because as he's doing it,

00:43:49the translator thought it was important to note and put in brackets,

00:43:53Brother Branham speaks each repeat a little faster.

00:43:57So everybody knows how he chants mathematics to bring the spirit of God down.

00:44:04And, you know, I just have to take a step back and ask the question,

00:44:08is this in any way biblical on how you get a sermon?

00:44:12Do you really start chanting mathematics so that God will come down to you?

00:44:16Or are you speaking to an audience who is so uneducated that two times two equals four really appeals to them?

00:44:23And I have to believe that for some reason,

00:44:26this audience was really attracted and entertained by this chant of two times two equals four.

00:44:32And I don't think Hobart did that.

00:44:33But I think that the people and Hobart knew it would respond to him when he came in the pulpit and say,

00:44:41Now, I've got a message here that the Lord gave me and it came by prophecy because prophecy is a big deal.

00:44:49It's a big deal in the New Testament.

00:44:51It's a huge deal in the Old Testament.

00:44:54I mean, that's why we have books that we call those are the prophets because that's what they were.

00:44:58They were prophets and they prophesied.

00:45:00And so, prophecy is biblical.

00:45:04Prophet is biblical.

00:45:06Prophesying is biblical.

00:45:07All of these terms come right from the Bible.

00:45:10And so, when you use all of the correct terminology,

00:45:16but Hobart didn't say I went and prayed to a spirit of divination to give me something.

00:45:20He's using nice, wonderful biblical terms.

00:45:24People do respond to that.

00:45:26They know, well, I've seen prophecy in the Bible.

00:45:28And so, God gave Ezekiel a prophecy.

00:45:32Why can't God give Hobart a prophecy?

00:45:35And Hobart prayed and God gave him a prophecy.

00:45:37And now he has come and delivered us via this hotline from heaven a fresh message for us to hear.

00:45:47Here's one other brief example, John.

00:45:50It is on another message taught at the Glory Barn in the fall of 1976.

00:45:57entitled Faith's Imperative.

00:46:01Faith's Imperative.

00:46:03And that goes from the five-minute mark, just 15 seconds, to the five-minute and 15-second mark.

00:46:11Why did I call it Faith's Imperative?

00:46:13Well, it didn't.

00:46:14It's just another one of those messages that sit down and the Lord gives me the title, then gives me the rest of it.

00:46:19But he told me many years ago, anytime you need a message, sit down, pick up a pencil, or sit at the typewriter, and I'll give it to you.

00:46:25So, what we learn on this one, just one example of many, is God gave him the title to that message.

00:46:33You know, isn't that great that, you know, God will just give you the title.

00:46:38So, God gave him the title, and I'm sure it was by prophecy.

00:46:41So, he said, Thus saith the Lord, the title is Faith's Imperative.

00:46:46I mean, all of this is so bizarre and so strange, and people should not respond positively to ministers who are getting messages in this way.

00:46:57But Hobart said, God gave me the title of Faith's Imperative, and, you know, I don't even know what passage he had to go find to use with that.

00:47:07But he tells in that little brief clip on this particular message, he references the 1967 time when God said,

00:47:18If you ever need a message, just sit down at your desk.

00:47:21He said, basically, you can get a pen and a piece of paper or get a typewriter.

00:47:25And then I'll give it to you, and you can prophesy it out as you type it.

00:47:31And Hobart said he's typed out many prophecies.

00:47:33So, this is, Thus saith the Lord, and here comes a prophecy.

00:47:39And what it is, is just a lot of generic run-of-the-mill.

00:47:45Either God is pleased with his people, or more times than not, God is displeased with his people

00:47:51because they have failed in the area of their confession, or their walk of holiness,

00:47:57or their witnessing, or their life of faith, or their financial support of faith assembly.

00:48:04They have failed in some regard.

00:48:06And so, here is a prophecy that has come that Dr. Freeman's going to deliver.

00:48:12Another way that you see this kind of manipulation, we're not going to listen to this, but people

00:48:19can go hear it for themselves, is a message entitled, Body Ministry, Special Instruments.

00:48:28It was done in 1975.

00:48:30And again, you can start at the very beginning and listen for, say, the first minute and a

00:48:34half.

00:48:35And we won't play that, but here's what's happening, John.

00:48:38And this happens more frequently than just about anything.

00:48:41At the Glory Barn, you would walk up a long flight of steps to reach the second floor.

00:48:47And that's where the pulpit was, and that's where the main group of people were.

00:48:52As the church grew in number, they had to start meeting people downstairs, and even people

00:48:57sitting outside in their cars listening over loudspeakers.

00:49:01But you wanted to get to the second floor where the pulpit was.

00:49:04When you walked in the Glory Barn, immediately to your right was a little ante room, just

00:49:10a little small, small room.

00:49:13When Hobart came up those steps, he ducked inside that room.

00:49:16He'd come in and go in that door.

00:49:18When he was ready to preach, he'd exit the opposite side of that room, right out onto the

00:49:23platform where the pulpit was.

00:49:25Everybody else knew to walk by that door, walk by that room, and go find your seat somewhere.

00:49:29So Hobart, when he would get to the Glory Barn, would go in that room.

00:49:34Jerry Irvin would start the worship service, and they would worship for a half hour, 45

00:49:39minutes.

00:49:40Meanwhile, Hobart is in that room, praying, looking at his Bible, getting ready to come

00:49:46out and preach.

00:49:48So on that particular message, Body Ministry Special Instruments, and you'll hear the same

00:49:53as I said on many others, when he comes out, he says, well, now God's given me a message,

00:50:01and I notice that he's confirming the message by all the various prophecies I heard out here

00:50:06in the church.

00:50:08So this is like all of us are working together.

00:50:11God gave me the message.

00:50:13I heard somebody give a prophecy about body ministry.

00:50:16So that confirms the message.

00:50:19And the problem, again, people say, well, what's wrong with that, you know?

00:50:22The problem with that is not that that couldn't happen, not that that's not possible to happen,

00:50:28but the problem with that is when you minister this way, this is the way charismatic ministers

00:50:34for the most part do it, and this is the way Hobart did it.

00:50:38Then when you go on and preach this message, and this message contains errors and heresies and

00:50:45mistakes and lies and things that aren't true, well, it's all been confirmed by God.

00:50:51So you have to accept all of that stuff, even though your mind tells you, you know, wait a minute,

00:50:56I think you just totally twisted that verse out of its context.

00:51:01Whenever you have prefaced everything with the fact God gave this to you directly,

00:51:06and now it's been confirmed by other members in the body, then, I mean, I think this is easy

00:51:11for everyone to see, logically, you have set the people in a position where they simply

00:51:18cannot go against anything that was said in that sermon.

00:51:22Darrell Bock Exactly.

00:51:24And like I said, I've heard countless sermons where the speaker, whether it be William Branham

00:51:29or somebody else, has said, God gave me this message, and today I'm giving it to you.

00:51:35It opens the idea that as God is speaking to them directly, whatever they say can't be

00:51:42disputed.

00:51:43And that's really, whenever you look at the dynamics of a cult, that's one of the most

00:51:47important aspects.

00:51:49If their sermons are so rigidly declared by God that you can't question it, well, if you

00:51:55do question, you're questioning God.

00:51:57You're not questioning the minister.

00:51:58And where this becomes even amplified as a bigger problem, the way in which the ministers

00:52:04do this and the people are learning by examples, they will often say things like, I had this

00:52:10conversation recently with somebody else.

00:52:12They'll get in an argument, and they'll say, well, I don't care what you said.

00:52:16God told me, and therefore, that's why I made this decision.

00:52:19Well, that halts the argument right there, man, because you're not going to argue with

00:52:22God.

00:52:23And you have to ask the question, did God really say it?

00:52:25I don't know if God said it, but the problem is that's how the people are being taught.

00:52:31And as ministers are rising in, as ministers are growing of age and becoming ministers in

00:52:38a movement like this, they're learning from the leader who's doing it by example.

00:52:43And where it gets really weird in this gray, murky area, I know of the ghost writers who

00:52:51were writing William Branham sermons, because one of the things that we haven't talked about

00:52:55yet is writer's block and sermon block and public speaker block.

00:53:01If you're a public speaker, you're going to hit a point at some stage in your ministry,

00:53:05or if you're a minister, you'll hit it in your ministry.

00:53:08If you're a public speaker, or you just really don't know what to say, and you'll go look

00:53:12for content.

00:53:13You may go read magazines.

00:53:15If you're a minister, you should be reading the Bible, but the Bible, unfortunately, in

00:53:21a group like this, is not entertaining enough to the people, because you're having to build

00:53:27this entertainment-style ministry that they're expecting God's going to speak to you and give

00:53:31you this new manna, this new revelation.

00:53:34Well, I can't just go to the Bible.

00:53:35They could go to the Bible themselves.

00:53:37I need something new.

00:53:38Well, what William Branham did was he had a lady, and I know the family that this lady,

00:53:45it was an ex-Jehovah's Witness family.

00:53:48The lady was actually writing a lot of the sermon notes, and a lot of the Jehovah's Witness

00:53:53theology came into Branham's sermons through this lady, and Branham's claiming it as divine

00:53:59revelation from God.

00:54:00So how does that work?

00:54:01Does the lady believe that she's God when she hears him say this?

00:54:05And he's saying it.

00:54:06Does he believe the lady's God?

00:54:07I don't know how to frame that, but he's not the only one doing this.

00:54:12You can go find other examples where ministers are.

00:54:15They've got people who are helping them.

00:54:17Some of them, especially the more wealthy ones, will have a team of people.

00:54:21I need to come up with a sermon topic.

00:54:24What is the sermon topic?

00:54:25Help me flesh out this sermon, and they'll have a staff that's doing it for them.

00:54:29Well, whenever the minister gets the staff that has presented all of his sermon notes and

00:54:34his subject matter, and he goes to the pulpit and he says, God spoke to me and gave me this

00:54:39sermon.

00:54:40What does that mean?

00:54:41That the staff is God.

00:54:43And so the whole thing just turns into this big mess that could simply be avoided by not

00:54:49creating this environment of an entertainment gospel and just saying, we're going to preach

00:54:54from the Bible, and you guys are going to enjoy the Bible.

00:54:57You're going to learn its concepts.

00:55:00And whenever I need new subject matter, whenever I have sermon block or writer's block, I'll

00:55:07never experience this because I'll go right back to the Bible, and here's the next chapter

00:55:10I'm going through.

00:55:11Yes, John, you said a moment ago that the young ministers that grow up in this, they end up

00:55:18copying their mentors, and I'm definitely guilty of that in my early ministry.

00:55:24I didn't know any other way to preach or teach except the way Hobart did, and so I'm definitely

00:55:30guilty of that.

00:55:32But it didn't take me that long to realize, because I would look out at the faces of my

00:55:38people, I think, I can't preach on faith again.

00:55:41They've already heard that.

00:55:43You know, I just can't do that.

00:55:44And the reason I think I was able to come to that point is because I was tired of someone

00:55:49doing that to me.

00:55:50I was tired of hearing the same old generic thing in a new dress.

00:55:54So I knew if I'm tired of hearing that, surely they're tired of hearing it, and I can't keep

00:55:59doing it.

00:55:59So, you know, Hobart had a series on the book of Revelation that was 11 tapes.

00:56:04You know that I'm currently teaching the book of Revelation.

00:56:07We're between 75 and 80 weeks, and we're still in chapter 7.

00:56:13And I'm not saying that I'm doing it the best way or the right way, or you have to do it

00:56:17my way.

00:56:18I will say that you won't really learn anything in 11 messages.

00:56:22You need more than that to study the whole book of Revelation.

00:56:26But, you know, it was just a hop, skip, and a jump in a prayer for Hobart as he would run

00:56:32through Revelation or run through anything.

00:56:34Unfortunately, those of us who are ministers, such as myself, we aren't prophets.

00:56:40We aren't apostles.

00:56:41We're not like them of old.

00:56:43We're not anything remotely like the prophets and apostles of old.

00:56:49Notwithstanding Paul Cain and Mike Bickle and Hobart Freeman and William Branham wishing

00:56:54and saying that they were, we're nothing like those men.

00:56:58Our ministry is nothing similar or comparable to theirs at all.

00:57:04They receive divine revelation directly from God.

00:57:10Can we even imagine the seriousness and the solemnity of that?

00:57:18The prophets in the Old Testament, they have this, not all the time, but more times than not,

00:57:25this regular delivery of what they receive from God.

00:57:30And biblical Old Testament scholars will tell you this.

00:57:34If you, they have studied this well enough to know, if you look at the prophets, Isaiah,

00:57:39Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the 12 minor prophets, they first of all have this word arrival formula.

00:57:48And see if you don't remember reading something in your Old Testament.

00:57:50And the word of the Lord came unto me saying, that's the word arrival formula.

00:57:56Then they had a prophecy command, go speak to the house of Israel.

00:58:03And then they had the legendary citation formula.

00:58:06This is a way you look at this from an Old Testament scholar's point of view.

00:58:11The word arrival formula, the prophecy command.

00:58:14And thirdly, the citation formula, which is the legendary, thus saith the Lord.

00:58:22And that, what they said was exactly what God said.

00:58:27I have never claimed that and would never claim that.

00:58:30You are on dangerous territory to put yourself in the same position as a prophet, as an apostle.

00:58:38It's not our job, John, today as Christian ministers to receive anything fresh, to receive anything directly from God.

00:58:47It's already here.

00:58:49We call it the Bible.

00:58:51It is already here.

00:58:52It's our job to correctly interpret, to correctly teach that, and to try to correctly apply that.

00:59:03And how do you do that?

00:59:04That doesn't come multiplying numbers in your mind or out loud.

00:59:10That doesn't come sitting at your typewriter on a Wednesday afternoon before a Wednesday teaching and wait for God to give you a prophecy.

00:59:20It requires knowledge.

00:59:22It requires study.

00:59:24It requires education and preparation and skill.

00:59:28And there are subjective components like personal piety and humility and integrity.

00:59:35All of this comes together or should come together in order for the minister to come up with what he wants to talk about.

00:59:45So, in conclusion, I would say, you know, what I'm doing currently right now is just teaching verse by verse, chapter by chapter through the book of Revelation.

00:59:54And one of the great things that teaching through, if you can't do or don't have the time to do the whole book, if you'll do a passage or if your minister will do a chapter, what it does is it keeps you between the lines.

01:00:12It keeps you driving in your own lane, so to speak, because you're in the Bible.

01:00:18You're in the Word of God.

01:00:19You're not off into some la-la prophetic prophecy land.

01:00:23You're actually in a contextual setting with verbs and nouns and words and sentences, and those things provide the guidelines.

01:00:34You can't leave that.

01:00:36You can't get outside of that and just make up something and say, well, I think that I can use 1 Corinthians 5, 7, for we walk by faith, not by sight, in a healing context, because that's not the context in which it's found.

01:00:51The context of the book, the passage that we as a Christian minister or pastor or teacher are delivering to the audience, it keeps us driving between the lines.

01:01:04It keeps us driving in our own lane so we don't run off the road or have some head-on collision.

01:01:10And, you know, the audiences today, our audiences, my audiences, we actually have it way easier than the people of Old Testament Israel, because what the people of Old Testament Israel, that audience, what they were hearing was the very Word of God.

01:01:31And that Word of God said, if you will obey, you will be blessed, and if you disobey, you will be judged.

01:01:38They were hearing the very Word of God spoken by the mouth of the prophets.

01:01:43And so was the early church hearing the very Word of God as it was revealed to the early apostolic community.

01:01:52Guess what?

01:01:53Our audiences today have it way easier.

01:01:56Our audiences today, my audience, and you can check my audience, and they will verify this.

01:02:04I never ask, never require, never even assume that they're going to believe anything because I've said it.

01:02:12I would never require anyone to do that because I'm not speaking the very Word of God.

01:02:17If I thought, if I was so deluded as to believe when I opened my mouth, the very words that were coming out were the Word of God, then I would expect people to obey them and do them.

01:02:29But that's psychotic to think that when you open your mouth, those are the very words of God.

01:02:36Our audience is the same as the audience in Berea.

01:02:40They are required to listen to what's being said, don't just reject it, hear what's being said, and then you go and you search the Scriptures daily and you compare what was said with what you know from the Bible.

01:02:53And that is the proper balance where the minister is going to be teaching you what he thinks the passage is saying, but he gives you not 50% or 75%, but 100% liberty to take or leave what I said.

01:03:12You're a human being.

01:03:13You've got a brain.

01:03:14You've got a mind.

01:03:15You own a Bible.

01:03:16Now you go study this out and see where you end up.

01:03:19And if we happen not to end up with the same conclusion, that's okay.

01:03:25You know, that is actually okay.

01:03:28That is part of everyone's experience and part of everyone's growth.

01:03:33So I appreciate the opportunity, John, to talk on the local pastor's sermon material.

01:03:40It's a crazy subject, and I could probably go on for a few hours more.

01:03:44The only thing that I'll add to try to sum it up in a thousand words combined into one statement is that there was a problem that existed, which you and I did speak on this recently.

01:03:56There's a problem that existed after the original Gospels were written and after the original letters that were combined into the Bible today were written.

01:04:06Other letters or books or scrolls written by other people under pseudonyms with the authority of the author who they weren't.

01:04:18There might be a scroll that claims, I, Paul, am writing to the people, and here is what I'm saying to do, so therefore listen to me because I'm Paul.

01:04:27And then they find out later, well, that wasn't really Paul that wrote that.

01:04:30And some of those, you can go look up a lot of these, I can't remember the website, but there's a number of scrolls that never made it into the Bible because they weren't by the people who they claimed to be from.

01:04:42And what they were doing was they were claiming false authority.

01:04:45My point that I was building up to, and I probably ran out of time, so I didn't do it very well, whenever these ministers are saying, God spoke to me, or thus saith the Lord, or all of these various ways in which they say, listen to my sermon because you better, or God's going to punish you, they're speaking out of authority that isn't theirs.

01:05:08And they're claiming authority that was never there to begin with.

01:05:11So in the end, they're no better than the scrolls that were written out of the Bible.

01:05:16That's right.

01:05:16You know, there's a gospel of Thomas and a gospel of Nicodemus, and those works are generally called the pseudepigrapha, but there were, you're right, John, quite a few works written.

01:05:28And the writers of those were smart enough people, they knew, in order to gain some authority, authenticity, and a reading audience, even though I'm not Thomas, I've got to pretend like I'm Thomas, because Thomas was one of those people back in the synoptic gospels, and I want to attach his name to the book, of course.

01:05:51Absolutely.

01:05:52Well, like I said, I could go for a few hours, I won't, people will get tired of hearing me, so we'll end it here.

01:05:57Thank you so much for doing this.

01:05:58Thanks, John.

01:06:00Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:06:03You can find us at william-branham.org.

01:06:06For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:06:20For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can find us at william-branham.

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01:07:22For more about the NAR, you can find us at william-branham.

01:07:23For more about the NAR, you can find us at william-branham.

01:07:24For more about the NAR, you can find us at william-branham.

01:07:25For more about the NAR, you can find us at william-branham.

01:07:26For more about the NAR, you can find us at william-branham.

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