- 3 weeks ago
Adolpho Veloso ('Train Dreams'), Autumn Durald Arkapaw ('Sinners'), Claudio Miranda ('F1: The Movie'), Lukasz Zal ('Hamnet'), Michael Bauman ('One Battle After Another') and Robbie Ryan ('Bugonia') join THR in our Cinematographer Roundtable.
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00:00This is something I'll never maybe experience again and I really I love that we're in that
00:05environment where we can have that kind of a reason for people to want to go to the cinema.
00:13Hello and welcome to the Hollywood Reporter Cinematographers Roundtable. I'm your host
00:17Brandi Victorian, Deputy Awards Editor for THR and I'm joined by six of this year's most outstanding
00:22directors of photography, Autumn Derod-Arkapa representing Sinners, Michael Bauman on behalf
00:28of One Battle After Another, Claudio Miranda for F1, Robby Ryan representing Begonia, Adolfo
00:35Voloso on behalf of Train Dreams, and Lucazal on behalf of Hamnet. Thank you all so much
00:41for being here with us. I know for most of you, you work on these films. Marks are reteaming
00:46with directors you've worked with in the past in some instances many times. You know, Claudio,
00:50you worked with Joseph Kaczynski on Oblivion, Tron Legacy, Top Gun Maverick. Robby, you worked
00:56with Yorgos Manthimos on The Favourite, Kinds of Kindness and Poor Things. Autumn, you also
01:01worked on Black Panther Wakanda Forever with Ryan Coogler. Michael, you were DP on Nickel
01:05Irish Pizza with Paul Thomas Anderson. And Adolfo, you also worked on Jackie with Clint
01:09Bentley. I would love for each of you to talk about those very first conversations with your
01:14respective directors about the films we're discussing today. You know, what did you set
01:18out to achieve from a cinematography perspective and what ultimately made you up for the task?
01:23I'll go first. I've been working with Yorgos quite a bit lately in a compressed amount
01:29of time. We've been going from one film to another. So I think with Bugonia, he sort of,
01:35it landed on his sort of desk. And when we were filming Kinds of Kindness, he sort of mentioned
01:40it, that it was the next film coming up. And it was coming up quite short. Well, maybe in the next
01:45year. So we got talking about it. And my sort of relationship with Yorgos, we sort of start
01:51talking about cameras and lenses a lot more than stories and stuff like that. And we'd
01:56done a bit of filming on VistaVision for Poor Things. We shot on that. So he was curious to
02:03try that out. So that was my beginning of conversations with Yorgos and Bugonia. And it was a kind of
02:11a practical kind of a conversation because we started going, okay, where do we get that camera?
02:14Where can we start doing a few tests? Obviously, there's many things as Michael probably and Autumn
02:20know about those cameras that are, you know, they bring up their own problem. So we kind of,
02:25we're going at it from that perspective.
02:27I'll go. I mean, I guess with Paul, he was really like, you know, this is kind of my fifth collaboration
02:34with him on over, you know, from in playing a few different roles. But on this particular one, he was
02:41really about like, he usually starts with like, film references and things like that. So this are like
02:47North Star was the French connection. And he really, you know, you review a lot of films beforehand. And that
02:55was kind of the start of the conversation. He, he really wanted that kind of an energy. And how does that
03:01translate in wanting to do it with the, you know, who's also really adamant and really wanted to
03:08explore the VistaVision concept? And how do we get that kind of energy in that system? You know,
03:15that tool set, it really hadn't been, it was to what Robbie said, you know, it's a, it can be
03:22challenging at times. It's a, it's its own finicky component, but so it was really just about starting
03:28to do a lot of tests. And, and from that kind of the dialogue starts on, on just how to, how to
03:33approach the film. Yeah. I was on another picture and I knew Ryan had a script and he was going to
03:40send it to me. Cause we always, when we're, when we're dealing with Ryan, we're like, you know,
03:45waiting, waiting, waiting for him to send the script. And so I was on another film,
03:49it was the night before shooting and he sent it to me. And, um, the night before I started my first
03:54day on this other picture and he sent it and I read it really quickly and I was just blown away.
03:59Cause I had never read anything like that before, obviously. Um, and it just opened like a new door,
04:05I think, cause you know, previously we worked on Panther, which is based off of, um, you know,
04:11something that someone else has done previously. So, you know, we had a reference, but with this,
04:16there was no reference. Um, and so I wrote him a long email, which I, I tend to do, um,
04:21when we're not near each other. And I just, you know, just told him how I felt about everything.
04:25Um, and then fast forward, uh, we did it really quickly with our group because we need to,
04:31you know, meet a certain time period where everyone was available. Um, but he, and he initially
04:36wanted to shoot 16 and then it went to large format, um, in our prep period. And then we,
04:42like they said, we did a lot of testing, um, and figured out that that was the format
04:46that we really wanted to use. And, you know, once you see that stuff projected,
04:50you don't really turn back. So then it became a kind of battle to, uh, make it happen.
04:55And, you know, logistically and financially.
04:58I think for me was coming from such a small film, like Jockey was, uh, when Clint got, uh,
05:05Train Dreams to do, he was sending me scripts early on. And we realized that we really wanted to keep
05:14everything we liked about jockeying in terms of like the flexibility, because it was such a small movie
05:19that we made in with a crew of like 10 people that were like, okay, how can we now scale this to
05:25a movie that it's much bigger? It's a period. So it's hard to, to do it the same way, but how we can keep
05:31everything that we liked about that one, of course, learn from the mistakes, but how we can keep that
05:36flexibility, how we can keep working just with natural light and practicals and, uh, trying to be as,
05:43uh, had a small footprint as much as possible. So we were, it was a lot about the conversations.
05:50Okay. How we make that happen with a huge crew now with a much bigger, uh, footprint and trying to protect
05:59that in within the set itself. So all the conversations beginning were like, okay,
06:04what do we like about jockey that we want to translate? And that would feel also make sense
06:08in this story. Uh, for sure. Natural light was one, for example, then we were like, okay,
06:14how do we do that? How do we, um, manage real fire candles, et cetera, et cetera. So it was a lot of
06:21managing and talking a lot with the whole crew to be able to plan for natural light. For example,
06:28it's really easy to do that. When you have a crew of 10 should go out and shoot in the best time of
06:34the day, stop in the middle of the day, go back in the end of the day and shoot a bit more. But when
06:38you have a crew that's bigger than a hundred, that's much more complicated. So all the conversations
06:44were really logistical in the beginning to try to, uh, make that possible. And then we
06:50obviously had a crew that embraced it and we just like, uh, moved on.
06:55I mean, mine is completely different. I mean, you guys are with giant cameras and if I put
07:00them in front of a, like a form of the car, no one could be having a lot more accidents.
07:03So ours is just, um, I mean, and my whole idea was try to get, I saw a lot of movies and stuff,
07:10you know, when they get on process car, all of a sudden you need a car that needs to feel like
07:14it's going 200 miles an hour is now going, you know, like, you know, biscuit rig goes
07:19maybe around the corner would go 20 and that we just all thought those versions of sad. So, but, um,
07:25for me, the priority on this one was to get actors going, um, you know, 200 miles an hour.
07:31So I approached Sony to make, I said, basically it's a sensor on a stick. So I just took apart a camera
07:37and just basically this, I had a lot of lead time, which was, which I have with Joe. So I can have,
07:43um, a camera company helped me out, do this and build a one-off cameras for us. They built one,
07:50uh, 21 off cameras for us. And also I were had because the cameras had to be exactly in various
07:58particular spots with the design. I had to work closely with like Mercedes because every focal length
08:05and every position was mapped. And there was like, you know, I was saying like, I would look at some
08:09previous and I say, Oh, this has to be a half a centimeter this way. Otherwise the wind blocks or
08:14the forward angle doesn't work. Cause everything had to be set. And it was like to get every angle
08:18approved. It was three months for almost for just to get it all down. And I had to be like that kind
08:25of crazy accuracy about where everything was placed has also it's about actors are driving plus 180
08:32miles an hour. It had to be also safe for them. So you couldn't put giant speed rail because everything
08:38had to be kind of built for crushing. So I never, you know, it's been, I haven't been like a situation
08:42where it's all safety. And these are the limitations of where cameras are going. But I think in the end,
08:48I think we, you know, we told the story of speed.
08:51So when we first met with, uh, Chloe, we're mostly talking about, you know, life, death, relations.
09:00We're talking a lot about relations, our relations. And, uh, yeah, we're talking also what we like,
09:06what we do not like that, you know, we want to make this feel very simple, kind of normal that, you know,
09:13we're talking what, how we are going to build our frames that, you know, the kind of tableaus are so important
09:18for us. So also what is beyond the frame. And, uh, and, you know, the most important thing was very soon.
09:25We, uh, when we start working, we went to the forest because that was also very important for us to just
09:31how to show the forest as a living organism, how to show the life, this cycle where our things are born and death
09:38that, and then we went to the forest and, uh, we just spend our time like four days. So then we're chatting in the morning.
09:46Uh, also prepared a lot of excerpts of different films. And then we were just watching, discussing,
09:52making like a brainstorm and just then shooting a forest with some micro lenses, different lenses.
09:58We're just looking how to, how to show the forest because that was the crucial thing for us.
10:03So yeah, that was being in the forest. That was the most important, just spending time there and being together
10:10and have this kind of not like a very relaxing time. And of course, Chloe was playing us Max Richter music.
10:18Uh, so then we are listening to music and then just trying to get into, into this.
10:24Nice. Well, as you all have kind of started to talk about, you know, technology played just such a huge role,
10:30um, in the cinematic presentation of each of your films. Um, Robbie, I know for Begonia,
10:35you tracked down a Wilcam 11, the only one of its kind, um, in the world to capture scenes.
10:40One, how did you track down, um, this camera and why this specific, um, camera?
10:45And how did its use affect your process?
10:49Um, well, again, it goes back to poor things. We were, uh, I got in touch with Scotty Smith,
10:55who's a technician who kind of knows a lot about those cameras.
10:59And we just got talking about it. And, um, he sort of had, it's kind of an unusual,
11:05it was a camera that was sold in a fire sale in Keslo cameras. They got rid of it.
11:09And a Belgian DP who's, I forgot his name now, but he's a 29 year old guy.
11:13He's a 29 year old guy who bought it for like 10 grand and it's just a whole kit.
11:17He just took it. And then he didn't know what to do with it.
11:19I think if I'm writing and saying, I'm sure he's probably gonna get in touch with me and give out about not being right.
11:24But what I got the sense was that he sent it in and got in touch with Scott Smith about re, um,
11:30re reconfiguring it to kind of be a bit more of a shoot friendly camera.
11:35And then, uh, another, uh, technician called Marty Mueller got involved and they re kind of,
11:40they re constructed the camera a bit, I think in, in like when we were doing poor things,
11:45it wasn't available to us to try out or use, but by the, in the intermediate time it had come available.
11:51They've done a bit of, uh, electronics, you know, reconstruction or whatever to fix it.
11:55So it's more, um, shoot friendly. Um, so it worked out well that we were able to test it.
12:00And, um, you know, our film's all set in the basement. So, you know, it, and Yorgos doesn't do ADR.
12:08So it was really the camera that we kind of went for because of the sound situation really,
12:14because they're there as Michael probably will tell you, they're very noisy cameras.
12:17So, um, we endeavor to go down that road and Scotty was very helpful in,
12:23and kind of bringing us into that world.
12:26And what that did as well was it was a camera that you could use 2000 foot loads on.
12:30So with VistaVision, your, um, stock goes literally from a thousand foot magazine usually gets you 10 minutes,
12:39but it only gets you five minutes on VistaVision.
12:41So we incorporated 2000 foot magazines, which kind of was unique to that camera.
12:46And that was, um, another reason why we went with that camera.
12:50Yeah. Well, and Michael, I want to bring you in on this as well with one battle after another,
12:55also being shot in VistaVision, you know, prior to the Brutalist, which won, um,
12:59um, the 2025 Oscar for cinematography, you know, this technology was last used in a future film with this format,
13:05um, in a future film in 1961, you know, what kind of accounts for this resurgence?
13:09And can you talk about, you know, also why you wanted to use this format?
13:12I think, um, I think people are, you know, I mean, it's great to shoot film when we have the opportunity.
13:19And, um, I think, you know, with Paul, he'd always been, we had, he had done some VistaVision stuff earlier.
13:27And I think we had experimented with it, but he used it on a, um, uh, like a long form music video.
13:32He did, um, a few years prior called Anima.
13:36And, uh, I think given the nature of in the scope of the film, he really wanted to try and do something that was like large format.
13:44And he's always also thinking he does the full photo chemical as much as possible.
13:48So he's looking at like, how do I get this into 70 millimeter?
13:51You know, he was definitely, you know, talking about IMAX and all that.
13:55And just, you know, so how do we get something that a camera system for what our needs were, we could shoot, um, you know, as practical as possible.
14:04Because it's, uh, it's interesting.
14:08It's kind of like a, you know, even this is a, he really wanted to try and make it as like a small independent movie.
14:13Because I think he felt that that was really critical to the, the aesthetic of the film.
14:17And so, uh, it was trying to, you know, get, uh, as mobile in the light as quick as possible.
14:25And so that was a lot of testing and, and exactly to what Robbie said, you know, sound challenges and things like that.
14:31Just to kind of see and, and rigs cause the viewing system on, on a bow cam, which is what we ended up getting and using as our primary camera is very, uh, specific.
14:41So there were just challenges on how to move the camera and how to frame and all this kind of stuff.
14:45So it, um, yeah, it was a, it was a process of several months of just kind of getting things to, in a shootable form, like that we could move at a speed that we needed to move at.
14:57I, I shot a movie this year with, uh, Vista Vision and when I was about to prep it, they arranged me a call with Robbie to ask about the camera.
15:06Okay.
15:07And I, after the whole conversation I was in, but what do you think?
15:10And Robbie just said, I'm glad I did not sure I would do it again.
15:14I don't, I don't, I really don't want to give out about the camera cause it, it, it, it, it, it's a gateway to get you a beautiful image.
15:27And that, you know, it's, um, it's very, very worthwhile going through, you know, basically when we're on a film set, a lot of eyes are on camera.
15:34You don't want it to be slowed up.
15:36You know, like your, your shoot is, it's a, it's a clock, the ticking clock, you know, and, um, with that camera, I just remember a lot of eyes would come on to us because there'd be a bit like first for the wheel cam.
15:47It takes five minutes to reload it.
15:49So you are already taken time up, but then when there's a little bit of a camera issue, it gets a little bit more, it raises the stakes a little bit, but, you know, I really don't want to sort of give out about the camera.
16:01Cause I think the format as Michael's saying is so wonderful and, you know, the fact that Paul's film is so propulsive and so like energy sort of, you would never, like the way I'm talking about, it sounds like you'd never get anything done, but like the boat cam is like a small little amazing camera that can kind of do a lot of things.
16:18And it's, um, it's just, uh, you know, this is all just a kind of, uh, a way to get a really great image.
16:26And, you know, as Michael's saying, to be able to work on film is a privilege and it's, it's great to promote it.
16:32And it's great that in a way Paul's endeavor to get it photochemically finished and shown in the four cinemas in the world on VistaVision, which to me, I've been to it twice now in London, because it feels like going into an art gallery.
16:45Like this is something I'll never maybe experience again.
16:48And I really, I love that we're in that environment where we can have that kind of a, um, a reason for people to want to go to the cinema.
16:56Yeah, absolutely.
16:58Um, and Claudio, maybe kind of similar from you, cause I believe the custom cameras for F1, you were kind of building on the technology for Top Gun Maverick.
17:05I think the Venice extension mini, um, can you talk about that a little, did you expect to kind of use that technology again?
17:12Um, and kind of what was, you know, the process a little bit of, of updating that tech for this film?
17:18For Top Gun, they, you know, the pilots weren't really flying.
17:22There was always someone in the front flying the jets.
17:24So that there was a little bit different.
17:28We really wanted actors to drive.
17:29So that just, um, even having a camera that's as small as it was, was slightly, you know, problematic.
17:37And I just had, we did a lot of like testing and R and D on that, but I mean, thank God for on that one, you know, um, you know, I was given the time.
17:46I just, you know, and that's the great thing with me and Joe that I've had a history with him.
17:49We said like, you know, I'd love that he tries to keep everything authentic, you know, that we don't go to, you know, volume stages or like, I mean, that would be a sad version of the movie.
17:59I think could you try to do it like in that kind of synthetics in a way.
18:03So I'm all with you, like in the organic ways and share it as much as possible.
18:06So my, I guess my version of the organic thing is, you know, let's go 200 miles an hour, I guess, in some sort of, and that's exciting when we first did it.
18:14And of course I was like, I did, you know, I did some, um, I did, we did this whole like thing where around the track where we had to do it.
18:21And I, and I had like this, um, this fail safe.
18:24So I got, they formed a seat for me and I'm like in the car, like potentially going to operate the thing.
18:30And, um, man, I was, you know, black and blue at the end of that thing.
18:34So thank God that was planned.
18:36I think C.
18:37So I'm glad that plan a worked where I get to stay somewhere and not get sick.
18:42Nice.
18:43Well, you survived.
18:44I survived.
18:46Just so glad plan A worked.
18:51Well, all of you that you mentioned with Ryan kind of once you all decided on large format, you know, there was no going back.
19:00And of course that made you the first woman cinematographer, you know, to shoot a feature film on 65 millimeter IMAX.
19:06Did you know you were making history at the time?
19:08No, no.
19:10Cause I think what I was saying before I didn't mention, um, like the first reference he gave me, like we thought we were shooting 16.
19:19Yeah.
19:20Um, and it was, you know, we wanted to run around and kind of be, you know, more gritty and tell that story.
19:27He, you know, he loved what he did and fail and love that camera.
19:30So when it went kind of, it went from 16 to 35 because there was too much gateway for our twinning work.
19:38And then it went to large format.
19:40Um, but no, Vanessa Bendetti at Kodak texted me, I think when I was driving to work one day and she told me, um, and it didn't really phase me.
19:48Cause you know, we're, we're pretty busy and we've got a lot on our mind, but, um, Ryan came up to me on set and he's like, you know, this is a big deal.
19:55And when he, when he said it to me that I felt it was pretty special because, you know, there's not many people doing films.
20:02Um, they get to do films like that, you know, um, Christopher Nolan and, and Hoyta, you know, or, you know, if I'm going to call anybody before I start shooting, it's, you know, there's not many people.
20:14So, um, it was nice to just kind of have this guy come over and, and Ryan and just be like, you know what, we're going to, we're going to up the ante.
20:24And we're going to use this format to tell the story.
20:26It's the best format.
20:27I think that we could tell it with, but to be brave, you know, there's a respect that I think has to happen when you're using these formats, you know, outside of, um, just that you're, you're getting to shoot film, but the crew that you have to have, um, how the crew operates.
20:43Um, you know, Robbie was talking about, um, like I had Schmitty on my set, who is my technician that looked after our system 65 camera and our IMAX camera.
20:53My camera team was impeccable.
20:55Um, you know, there, there are a lot of eyes on us, but you know, with Ryan, it's like, he's very patient and, um, very brave in his filmmaking.
21:03So on our sets there, there's time given to, you know, what we have to do and, um, respect.
21:10And I think that's the most important thing when you're shooting that is you have to, you have to be okay with it.
21:15Like everyone's always trying to rush, you know, the process, but, um, when you're storytelling, you want, you want patience.
21:22Um, and so, yeah, it was, it was nice, um, to, to be able to be that person, to have that first, but I also feel like, um, you know, as a woman, we're all storytellers.
21:33I mean, you know, I have eyeballs too and, you know, I'm, I'm creative and I, and I, you know, I have a point of view.
21:40So it just was a matter of time.
21:42I think that it got in the hands of, um, you know, female DP, but it, it, it makes sense that it was right.
21:49Cause he's, he is the right person for that to happen for sure.
21:52Yeah.
21:53Um, the idea of patience might lead into, you know, the next question, you know, Lucas and Adolfo,
21:58you've spoken to this a little bit already, but you know, both with Hamnet and Train Dreams, there's just such gorgeous, lush landscapes, um,
22:05that are shown right from the first frames of the film.
22:08You know, how did you, um, so beautifully capture, you know, such an uncontrollable environment as nature,
22:13you know, for these projects?
22:15You know, because I think for us was the most, the most important was like really just to create,
22:23create like a container.
22:24It's like a frame.
22:25It's like, you know, we create a piece of the world where we will be moving a bit like, you know,
22:30the documentary manner because for Chloe, and I think for me as well, it's like really, yeah,
22:36that was the crucial thing to, to, to capture the presence and to capture this nature.
22:42So I think, you know, we are very simple.
22:45Uh, we are really simple in a way like, you know, uh, when I did my equipment list,
22:51my producer asked me, is that all Lukasz?
22:54I said, yes, it is.
22:55And then, you know, we are just, no, because I think we wanted just to have a time and then
23:03not to be, not to have, just really be simple because also like our actors and I think I,
23:11before shooting, I was thinking, you know, how to move in this forest, what to use.
23:16Just really, I wasn't sure.
23:18And then I realized that I want to just really give our, our cast and Jesse and Paul,
23:25I wanted to give them a space to perform, really capture the performers.
23:29Not to put any, any, any big monsters, not to put any big cranes.
23:34We just had a little simple crane, but I think we just spent a time there and we are really just,
23:40we were not rushing.
23:41We were just, we, we, I think that the most beautiful thing was in this film, especially
23:46in the forest, but in general, that we are not rushing with a time.
23:50There was a time to really kind of a find a frame, find this piece of reality where we
23:56are going to move, but really wait, wait for a wind, where for a, for a, for a, for a weather,
24:02because whether, you know, in your England, it's changing all the time.
24:05As you know, so that I think we're patient when observing and we are very, you know,
24:11present there.
24:12And, and like a little kind of a funny, funny thing where we had, it's not in the forest,
24:19but it was in the globe that, you know, we put a big crane there in a globe.
24:22And then we felt that this crane is so big that it's just ruining the kind of a feeling
24:29that it's such a, it's like a alien in this, in this globe.
24:32And then we just, we moved the crane and we were just shooting everything for a leather
24:36pot because we didn't, and, and it was exactly the same in, in a forest, in a house that we
24:42are just, I think we're trying to be simple and, in very patient and just observe.
24:47And, and, and, but being ready for everything that is happening that, you know, we had a plan
24:52always, but, but, but, but I think we were always ready for something unexpected for,
24:59for, for just changing decision that, you know, sometimes things are well not working.
25:03Then, okay, let's do a completely different thing.
25:05And I love that this kind of a, that you build the world, you're deciding about, okay,
25:09we see this and this, but then you can change everything within, within this frame,
25:13within this angle, we can work there at the documentary.
25:17Yeah.
25:18Yeah.
25:19So I think that was the approach.
25:21I think for us was really similar, actually.
25:23We, for us, nature was very important character in the movie.
25:27So we talked about, talked a lot about how to portray that in images.
25:34So how do we shoot nature in a way that it doesn't feel like we shooting landscapes, how
25:39we shoot nature in a way that looks like we shooting just another character in the movie.
25:43So that goes from simple decisions like, okay, we don't need a drone shot here to show
25:48nature because we wouldn't shoot a person on a drone shot.
25:51We would shoot it from here, from the ground with a handheld camera.
25:55And the same way as like, whenever we have the characters with nature and trees and forest
26:02behind them.
26:03Okay.
26:04Let's shoot that as we're shooting an over the shoulder on another character in the
26:07reverse.
26:08And, and so it goes on.
26:10It was a lot about trying to portray nature as a character in the movie and a character
26:17that has a voice that it's kind of fighting back.
26:20So giving that voice to, to nature was important.
26:23And being also open, like Luca said, to the changes and the, and, and Clint is a really
26:32amazing director on adjusting to whatever happens.
26:37So whenever shooting animals, for example, if the animals are not doing what they're supposed
26:41to do, let's just embrace it and shoot them doing whatever they want to do.
26:45And then actors would be even more amazing and adapt to that and kind of go do whatever
26:52the animals wanted to do.
26:54And, and the same thing with nature, if it's raining and we didn't want it to rain, why
26:59not?
27:00Like, let's just embrace it and shoot it.
27:02Now the scene is a raining scene and vice versa.
27:06And having real locations was also amazing because we could be in or out whenever we wanted.
27:13So if it's not quite right outside, let's go inside and shoot it inside and vice versa.
27:17So really embracing nature and, and, and trying to make it as part of the set as possible.
27:25I mean, you also had to show like the devastation of nature, you know, particularly through fire.
27:30There's also a light source in this film.
27:33Can you kind of talk about the importance in the decision to use real fires instead of visual effects
27:38and kind of what it took to pull that off?
27:40I think it has to do a lot with that feeling of like trying to make it as naturalistic as possible.
27:46We wanted to keep the fires real.
27:51So, so making sure that the care, the actors could play around those campfires or those candles
27:59and actually use them and feel the heat and, uh, feel the, the actual flicker and et cetera.
28:07I just feel like whenever I would use something to mimic fire, I would never get the same result
28:13as actually using fire.
28:15So there's also a lot of, again, prep and a whole team that needs to embrace that.
28:19And a lot of, uh, SFX work.
28:22And I mean, there's that, that expands to so many other departments that you, you really need a, a whole movie crew that is willing to embrace it.
28:33And, and for us, because it, again, the devastation is so important in the movie, we wanted to portray fire as, as realistic as possible.
28:42And we just looked at a lot of, uh, real fire footage and, and trying to mimic that instead of looking other movies and trying to replicate that.
28:52So I was just trying to, to see the real images.
28:56We, we were supposed to shoot the movie when the strike happened.
29:01We didn't because of the strike, but we went there.
29:03We were actually, we actually saw real fire happening that we had to be inside.
29:10We couldn't go out at all because the whole area was smoky and orange.
29:15So we kind of leave that the year, uh, before shooting it.
29:19So that was also kind of learning experience to know how to, to shoot it and how to, to be respectful to it too.
29:27Yeah.
29:28Um, also, I feel like we can't talk about controllable versus uncontrollable environments without going back to F1 and just this, you know, massive undertaking of filming, um, you know, during actual races.
29:39Claudio, can you just talk about like what level of coordination, you know, this required, not only with production.
29:44Team, but also the entire like formula one enterprise.
29:48Um, well, we had a fantastic ad.
29:51I mean, that really coordinated our little time slots.
29:54Cause normally in a normal shoot day, most other films I've worked on you, you shoot most of the time.
30:00And our days are filled with little three minute pocket windows where we're allowed to go on the track for between qualifying and other races.
30:08And our job was to actually get, you know, fans and everything real.
30:12And we had, I think we built six, six cars.
30:16We had five, uh, gas powered cars.
30:19And, um, originally I had another camera car that was, um, it was a Lola.
30:24I don't know if anyone knows what that is, but it's this kind of, uh, fast race car.
30:30And that was the one that I got sick in sort of.
30:32And, um, I, we actually found out that kind of through trial and errors, things kind of change.
30:38We actually found it was nicer to put our cameras on our other race cars to kind of, so if I did pan left, I would be seeing the real car.
30:48Well, I know, uh, PTA also opted to shoot, um, location for one battle after another.
30:52And I think, um, you know, the scene every once in a while was captured is the car chase sequence, um, near the end, you know, on a very highway, um, in Borreo Springs, California.
31:03Can you walk us through that execution?
31:06Yeah.
31:07I mean, it was really, um, I think originally had written that there was going to be a car chase and didn't, you know, but it really, um, uh, Florencia Martin and, um, the locations department, um, were able to find, you know, after just scouting roads all over the place, found this unique road.
31:28That's like, I know the interesting thing about that job is I saw parts of California I'd never seen before and the state continues to surprise, but, um, we ended up, um, you know, just going out there first and just, you know, just basically driving in a van with the iPhone press to the back of a car.
31:47And, and Brian, uh, Maclet, who was our stunt coordinator was driving another vehicle and we were just kind of seeing what it would look like.
31:53And, uh, so I have like all this iPhone footage of like car disappearing, car reappearing.
31:58And it just kind of started from that.
31:59And then, um, you know, Paul, it's all about absolutely doing everything as practical as possible.
32:06So, um, Tana Duby, who was her key grip, she was really, um, you know, I'd worked with Alan Padelford before, but she knew that team really well.
32:16And Alan came in, um, uh, and just brought everything, you know, which was great.
32:21And so his, uh, elevator rig, um, and, um, you know, his arm car and, you know, just kind of unleashed all that.
32:30And then it was also just trying to find, you know, the camera team finding systems that could support the Vista vision camera and to, you know, to what Robbie said earlier, it's just, it's, it's can be very finicky.
32:41And we learned a lot of, you know, we had a lot of jams and things like that, as we just kind of refined the system more and more.
32:46Um, but yeah, it was really just finding those moments of, you know, whether it's long lenses on the side of the road or the energy.
32:56And then it was also just seeing like, and, you know, I mean, you know, I'm sure Claudia, you guys went down this path as far as like millimeter length to translate into speed.
33:04And, um, you know, so it was really like finding, okay, great.
33:07We can use short zooms to get really accelerate the, you know, just the over the hill and how fast you're going.
33:15And then, um, you know, so there's not that was pulling focus for us, just racking to, you know, just different points in the road.
33:22We just added another element. And so it was really just capturing all these different things.
33:28And it was, you know, I mean, it was tedious things would break, you know, it was just, it was just a process and it was incredibly hot out there.
33:33So you just had like the temperature was affecting things also. So it was, it was a journey, but then pulling all that in together.
33:40And then the other thing with pause, you're always watching print dailies at night, which is great.
33:44So he can, everyone's in there, you review everything. And, you know, they even hauled around a Vista vision projector so he could take a look at that and see what that did.
33:53And so you're just constantly reviewing your footage and just looking at stuff and just kind of putting the sequence together.
33:58And then he's also playing the art, you know, he's, he's getting soundtrack from, um, from Johnny, who's sending material and music.
34:06And he's just kind of just messing around with all of that. And it's kind of like a group effort as you're building this whole thing.
34:11Yeah. So, um, and Robbie, as you've kind of alluded to earlier, you know, with Begonia, you're kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum where, you know, where most of the action is taking place, you know, in this house and, uh, you know, Teddy's basement.
34:25How did you kind of find new angles and interesting ways to kind of build that tension, as you mentioned, um, between Jesse Clinton's character and in the stones?
34:33Yeah. Well, a lot of the film happens in a basement. Yeah. I feel like, listen to you guys.
34:39I would have loved to be out in those roads, driving around like crazy, but, uh, yeah, the, the story, 17% of our story is about, uh, Emma Stone locked to a bed, talking to Jesse Plemons, who is, you know, interrogating or, you know, um, challenging her on all levels.
34:58So we, we, I think the clever move would go on VistaVision on this camera is because on this film is because Jorges felt the portraiture you could get on that camera was going to be the prime sort of, um, ace card in the, in the film in a way.
35:13Their faces are so, you know, amazing to watch and their characters development is all about the subtlety of like, is somebody lying? Is somebody not?
35:23So we knew that we'd end up shooting. There's no way, but kind of like shooting sort of static shots of closeups.
35:32And, um, I have to, uh, you know, say, uh, thank you to Olga Abramson, our folks putter. Cause like everything we shot was on a very long lens, uh, a lot of the time.
35:43I'm at a very open aperture. So her, her folks putting is like exemplary in that and it, it kind of is character in itself.
35:51So, you know, I just, I think the, the VistaVision portraiture photography is kind of, it's a really great choice on that film because it kind of, it lends so much to their character development, you know?
36:04Um, but I, I, I can't, I can't really, our film doesn't have much else to sort of like, when Yorgos' camera moves when the camera, when the people move.
36:14So in this film, everybody's sitting down all the time and, you know, there's a long talk, but I, I was always, you know, concerned about maybe, is this going to be a bit something which doesn't keep you, you know, engaged?
36:25But I think it's down to the actors that you're so drawn into their story and you just stick with it.
36:31And you really, you, you're kind of, you know, engrossed in it really. So, um, that was, that was a, that was a good, a good win for us.
36:41Agreed.
36:43Um, and look, as you know, in Hamnet, there's just an incredible amount of emotion, um, that has to be brought forth in this film.
36:49And I think one of the scenes fans of, uh, Maggie O'Farrell's novel, Hamnet, from which Chloe Zhao adapted the screenplay,
36:56we're really curious about how it will be portrayed on screen, was the stage play at the end and how Hamnet might show up
37:02and the dynamic, um, between Agnes and William, you know, played by Jesse Buckley and Paul Mascow.
37:07Can you talk about, um, you know, that execution and, and playing that out in the film?
37:12Uh, yeah, I mean, that's, that's kind of interesting, you know, because also, uh, the, the, the ending, like, uh, I mean, of course, you know, we, I mean, first of all, you know,
37:24we went to a real globe and then, and then, you know, Chloe just came to me and Fiona Crombie, a production designer.
37:32And she said to us, you know, we cannot shoot in the real globe.
37:35Uh, I, I don't, I don't like it.
37:37It doesn't work for us.
37:38So then we decided to build our, our little globe because she wanted that this globe inside will, uh, look like a, like a tree.
37:46There will be like a inside of the tree.
37:48So that was the first, first thing.
37:50And then, you know, we just, uh, yeah, we knew that it's going to be the, the, you know, the, the, the, the most important part of the film.
37:59And also, uh, but you know, the, the ending that the exact ending, how we, how it ended at the end that it was just came up four days before, before the end of shooting, just to Chloe just found this idea.
38:14So that's exactly, you know, it's like, we are working that, you know, we had a plan, we had ideas, but we were really just observing what is, what is going on.
38:24It was just, uh, and you know, we're just also, I think like exactly like with, with everything, you know, we were there just very simple.
38:33You know, we have this, we had this leather pot, you know, we just remove the crane because he was like a, you know, like a something.
38:39I think not belonging to, to this place because we wanted to be, and then, you know, we were just, just observing, following the, following emotions, uh, just, just by day, by day, very slowly.
38:52Just trying to, you know, trying to capture, capture the truth, trying to capture the emotions and being close to our characters.
39:01And what was most, I think, interesting for me, uh, that were, you know, there was done, uh, like a dream work, uh, session for, for extras.
39:12And that was amazing that, uh, this dream work really helped our extras and, uh, actors, but also extras just to get into those emotions of, of grief, of losing somebody, of just being there.
39:28Just, just, just help them to just be so immersed in the situation that, uh, I was kind of, uh, shocked, you know, how it worked, how, how, how this interfered the people that we were so in.
39:42And also, you know, I think, uh, what happened in this film, and I think this really is transferred into this scene, but also in the whole film.
39:51That we, as a, as a, as a crew, uh, as a, as a, as a, as a, as a Chloe is calling this, like a village, because we are like a village.
39:59We are like a really close people.
40:01We create like a family.
40:03We are so together in it.
40:06We are, we create, we created this kind of, uh, atmosphere that, uh, our cast and extras and just were able to really feel their luck in the, in the, in a, in a, in a real.
40:20Place in, uh, and can show emotions.
40:25And, you know, we are working very in the silence, very, everybody was very focused.
40:30So I think also because of the crew.
40:33That they help us to, to, to create this amazing atmosphere where we are just capturing this.
40:39Absolutely.
40:40Um, I also want to talk about, um, another scene, you know, in sinners, I think one of the more, um, talked about and kind of dissected is the, uh, dance sequence in the juke joint.
40:49You know, kind of connecting past and present forms of movement and African American culture.
40:54You know, what went into capturing that moment, Autumn?
40:57Yeah.
40:58Um, I mean, when you read that on the page, uh, like when I read it originally, it's, you know, say it's like half a page of description.
41:07Um, you kind of know, like knowing Ryan, he wants to always take the audience on a ride and do something new for the first time.
41:16And, um, just give the audience something to like, there's a feeling that he had, or he got when he was younger and he watched a movie.
41:23Like if you're watching like Terminator, you're in the theater and it's just, you're blown away by something.
41:28Right.
41:29And it's in your gut.
41:30Um, and it was one of those kinds of scenes and he's really good at writing those types of things.
41:34So, you know, I think everyone kind of took what they wanted from it.
41:38Like the audience all has a different interpretation of what that scene means.
41:43Um, and the same, you know, as a creative when you're reading it.
41:46So it took a lot of preparation and a lot of discussions to make sure like we understood what he wanted to say in that scene.
41:54Um, and yeah, it's, it's a compilation of a few shots.
41:57We had one day where we were shooting in the lumber mill.
42:00And so it's the IMAX cameras all on steady cam and there are three shots stitched together.
42:06And then it goes into the roof, which is, we did all our fire for real.
42:10So we, on the last day of shooting, we burned the roof and we use that.
42:14Um, it's a VFX takeover and it goes into another sequence that is shot at night on a different day.
42:20Um, off of a 50 foot movie bird on a hundred feet of track that pulls back.
42:25It's also IMAX, um, night exterior.
42:28So yeah, it's, I mean, that's all the logistics around it.
42:31You know, that takes a while you figured out, you do previs, you work with the, um,
42:35the, um, choreographer, you work with, um, Ludwig and everyone's there kind of, you know, having fun.
42:43It's, you know, it's a family kind of event.
42:45You know, there's a lot of dancers there and a lot of, um, creatives on set trying to problem solve, um, with the actors.
42:52Um, but I think what's beautiful about it is that it, you feel it.
42:56It's one of those sequences that you feel, you know, you don't really know how to describe it.
43:00And he's, he's asking the audience to kind of, you know, like come with me for this ride.
43:05Like, I'm going to take you somewhere for a second.
43:07I'm going to, you know, it's a departure from the normal story, you know, where you see these two cultures kind of come together, you know,
43:14cause it ends with the vampires that you, you kind of have this introduction when they approach the lumber mill.
43:20But, um, he does a beautiful job of that.
43:22I think, you know, on the page of, of saying, um, just give me a moment of your time and, and I'm going to explain something to you.
43:30And so to see a lot of, uh, people talk about it and, and audiences kind of, um, you know, want to, want to dissect it.
43:37It means a lot because then you've done your job as a filmmaker.
43:39I think everyone on this panel, it's like, we're there to kind of move people and we want them to be excited and, um, interested.
43:46And, um, so when you get a chance to do that, I think it's really important.
43:50Um, it makes you feel like you've done your job, obviously.
43:53Well, to that point, I mean, Ryan Coogler, you know, doing the Kodak promotion kind of explained the way centers were shot.
44:00I mean, really just led to pandemonium at the box office.
44:03You couldn't get an IMAX ticket.
44:04I couldn't get an IMAX ticket.
44:05You know, people were going two and three times, you know, to get the film keepsake.
44:09Um, and I think very similarly, you know, F1 cinematography has been, you know, credited with its success at the box office, you know, which I also think speaks to growing sophistication, um, of audiences as well.
44:20You know, do you feel this trend will continue, um, you know, of just, you know, cinematographers getting the respect they deserve, you know, do you feel like you all are getting that, you know, both within and outside of the industry at this moment?
44:33Yeah, I mean, you want to get people out of their seats and out of their houses, you know, because we're also inundated with images and content that I feel like if you want to express yourself with an old tool and revive it and tell a new story that's different.
44:51Um, to, it's about creating an experience.
44:54I took my son to see F1, you know, um, and there's not a lot of movies, movies my son can see and I wanted to see it.
45:01And I went and, you know, I got an IMAX ticket.
45:03I bought it early and, um, same for one battle.
45:06And so it's like, you know, I want to be excited again.
45:09I want to go to the theater and I want to, you know, um, have that experience that I had when I was younger, you know, and bought a ticket and waited a couple of weeks to, to see something, you know, um, where everything, everyone's looking for something new.
45:21You know, they want to be woken up, you know, like jolted out of their seat.
45:25Um, like, so yeah, I do, I do feel like there's a new place for it and it's exciting when, you know, these large formats or you can create an experience for the viewer that is not normal that you can get your house.
45:37I think one of the things I really have to say that the commitment to like trying to project in VistaVision and the journey that like Erica Fraun and the editing team or she's a post supervisor had to do to just get that.
45:50But to get that to happen.
45:53But the, to, to what Autumn just said about getting people to come out and really experience, you know, on the big screen and, and, you know, originating in formats that really are designed to, to, to do all the way to exhibition like this is, is, is, is really impactful.
46:11I mean, it's interesting at the Visto in LA here where they screen it cause they don't do assigned seats.
46:16So every time you roll it's up, there's a line down the block and people are like, this is like something out of Star Wars back in the day, you know, because it's just, it's a really, and it's just, as people go by, they're like, what's going on here?
46:26And it's just, it gets more energy about like, this is something you need to commit to going to.
46:31And I think that's really important right now in the state of the business of, of underscoring the power of cinema.
46:38Also, when we talk about the acclaim of these films, you know, there was a debate that was sparked in 2013 when Claudio, you won the Academy Award for Life of Pi.
46:46And there was a question, you know, should there be two separate Oscar categories for cinematography?
46:51You know, one that honors sort of classically photographed movies and another for films that employ lots of digital and visual effects work, you know, which we see quite often now.
47:00I'm curious with the rise of AI and filmmaking right now, you know, do you all think it's time to revisit that conversation?
47:07Should there be two categories for cinematography?
47:12There used to be, sorry.
47:13I don't think so.
47:14There used to be black and white cinematography.
47:16There used to be black and white cinematography.
47:18Remember that?
47:19So I don't think so.
47:21I agree.
47:22No, I think us as creators, we just need to figure out what the story is.
47:25And I got to figure out what the, what the, the correct medium is to shoot that with.
47:29Because I couldn't do my movies on film, even though I'd love to, you know, and I saw some great images of people hanging on, you know, like references, hanging on race cars and not, you know, I, safety won't let me do that anymore.
47:44You know, I can hang on an F1 car, but I just, I know I had to tell my story this way and I, and everyone has their own path.
47:52I think whatever path they choose, I think we should honor that.
47:55And then whoever accepts that, I just don't feel like it should be like segregated.
47:59And sometimes I feel like the people that were actually judging may not actually know exactly what that was, what it was shot on.
48:07So I think that division line gets blurred by who was actually voting for it.
48:11So I think in the end, this is how does it make you feel? How did, how do you, how do you feel about what you saw?
48:16I think as well, we're, we're harnessing so much digital, visual, visual effects stuff in all of our films that we've shot on bigger, larger film formats that, you know, it's, it's a very important part of us getting that image across.
48:30is there's a lot of hidden sort of visuals that are being helped by digital technology.
48:36So it's just harnessing and making it all kind of like as a presented feeling true to whatever your final film wants to be.
48:44But we're, we're, we're in debt to the, all the visual effects as well.
48:49Well, thank you all so much for being here with us and for sharing your incredible work.
48:53I'm Rene Victorian, and this is the Hollywood Reporter Cinematography Roundtable.
49:02Thanks.
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