Us President Donald Trump says his country plans to run Venezuela until a transition of power can take place. Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife were taken by US forces during a two-hour military raid on the capital, Caracas overnight. The pair will stand trial in New York. Charles Shapiro is a former United States Ambassador to Venezuela and says Maduro’s capture breaks all international rules.
00:05I mean, the key issue is what comes next, and that's what Laura Tingle was talking about.
00:12You know, it's one thing to say we got rid of Maduro.
00:16All the Venezuelans I know, both in Venezuela and Venezuelan exiles outside of Venezuela, are delighted.
00:24But how are they going to feel in 24 hours or in six months or a year from now?
00:29It's very, very complicated, and President Trump did not specify at all.
00:34We're going to run Venezuela?
00:36Well, how's that going to work?
00:38And clearly, Delce Rodriguez is not going to be the lever that we're going to use to run Venezuela.
00:46That's right.
00:46The U.S. president has gone so far as to say that he will run Venezuela, but we don't have more details.
00:52So for the people of Venezuela, who's running the infrastructure, the power, what's happening on the ground in the country?
01:00So far as I can tell, the people who were in place 24 hours ago are still in place now.
01:06The military is still there.
01:07The military, the minister of defense was on with Delce Rodriguez.
01:11So they all appear to be loyal up to this point for how long, I do not know.
01:20So this is going to be complicated.
01:22I mean, really complicated and has international implications for certainly for Mexico and Colombia.
01:31If the president of the United States asserts the authority to depose any president in a country where there's drug trafficking, and certainly for Ukraine and Taiwan.
01:44What are the implications for other countries?
01:47We've got Donald Trump indicating moves there, threatening moves.
01:51What are we going to see?
01:52Well, the majority of cocaine that comes to the United States, in fact, comes from Colombia, not Venezuela.
01:59And so actually I did an interview with the Colombian radio station this morning, and they're asking me, you know, what does this mean?
02:03What does this mean for our president?
02:05If I were the president of Colombia, I'd be very concerned.
02:09And almost all the fentanyl and a great, well, cocaine isn't produced in Mexico, it's trafficked through Mexico.
02:16And it's coming across the southern border of the United States, from Mexico to the United States.
02:22You know, Mexico is a country with 120 million people, a huge economy.
02:28You know, does the United States really think we're going to go grab the president of Mexico?
02:32I mean, that's insane.
02:35What are the legal grounds that Donald Trump is standing on as he takes this action?
02:39He did not seek congressional approval for this action.
02:42The UN Security Council is meeting on Monday.
02:45What are we going to see in terms of the international reaction to this legally?
02:50Well, the international reaction up to this point and will continue to be almost uniformly negative.
02:57You know, we, the United States, together with our allies around the world, have constructed an international system that's based on rules.
03:07This breaks all of those rules.
03:09As you saw in the press conference, the president and the secretary of state said, well, this is a police action, a law enforcement action.
03:17I don't think that's going to, that may convince supporters of the president of the United States, but I don't think that has a great deal of influence internationally.
03:26Charles, we've seen this action in Venezuela overnight, and you spoke earlier about the moves and the indications towards action in other countries as well, Colombia, Mexico.
03:36This seems to signal a real shift in terms of the approach that Donald Trump takes to other countries.
03:44When he was running for president, he was saying, you know, I wouldn't be someone who would be pursuing these foreign conflicts.
03:50And that's something that goes against his base.
03:53And there is a, there's disapproval from his base in terms of the pursuit of these foreign affairs.
04:00What do you see as in, as this shift being in his leadership style and approach towards other countries?
04:08Well, leaders can lead, but they've got to make sure the followers follow.
04:12Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is a congressman from my state of Georgia, put out a statement this morning saying this is not what she voted for and not what she supported.
04:21In the press conference, President Trump spoke as if Venezuela, as a near neighbor of the United States, is really not getting involved in international regime change that almost like this is at home.
04:41And the approach is one of spheres of influence with the United States has its sphere of influence.
04:50Russia has its and China has its sphere of influence.
04:53And that is very worrisome.
04:56We're just seeing some live pictures here, Charles, of a plane in New York.
05:00We understand this is where the Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro, has been.
05:06And we'll keep on these live pics as we see any developments here.
05:09What's next for him as he faces these charges in New York?
05:14Well, he'll be brought to court on Monday morning and presumably will be treated as any other criminal.
05:22So we'll get a better jail cell.
05:25But, I mean, he's been indicted in New York, as has Celia Flores, his wife, and they'll be entitled to legal counsel and will be treated as any other criminal would be.
05:35Again, that's going to have serious international implications against U.S. unilateralism.
05:46The photo of him posted on social media by the president blindfolded.
05:51What message was that trying to send?
05:54What was the president trying to do in posting that photo?
05:57I cannot speak for the president.
05:59I have to ask him that.
06:00I mean, clearly, that sends a message, but, you know, what he intended, I cannot tell you.
06:07So what are we going to see in the coming days then, Charles, as we see those charges being faced and also the uncertainty perhaps hopefully becoming clearer in Venezuela?
06:18Well, you'll see a court case in New York, you know.
06:21But in Venezuela, there's great uncertainty now.
06:30There's glee that Maduro is gone by the 80% of the people who opposed Maduro, who voted for the opposition in the last election.
06:38But the what comes next, you know, who's running the electrical system, who's running the schools, who's running, you name it, all those functions that governments carry out.
06:51And if they're doing it through Delcy Rodriguez and the Maduro government, Maduro military and Maduro police, what happens next?
07:01And really troubling to me personally, and I think a great number of the Venezuelan opposition was his dismissal of Maria Karina Machado, the woman who just won the Nobel, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in December in Oslo, where he says she's not respected in Venezuela.
07:25Holy cow, there is no Venezuelan opposition politician more respected than Maria Karina Machado.
07:34So how would you explain that shift then?
07:37Because he has been quite supportive of her.
07:43She's been more supportive of him than he has of her.
07:46And I am sorry, I need to go.
07:49All right, Charles Shapiro.
07:50Well, we really appreciate you sparing the time to speak to us, Charles.
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