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https://www.mecum.com/auctions/las-vegas-motorcycles-2026/?utm_source=CycleWorld&utm_medium=Podcast3&utm_campaign=01142026
In this week's episode, Cycle World Technical Editor Kevin Cameron and Editor-in-Chief Mark Hoyer talk about racers and crew chiefs and how their seeming supernatural powers relate to their humanity. Also, we have learned so much from these talented, intelligent people and share many stories about some of the greatest road racing riders and tuners of all time, how they win and how they progress. Join us!
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https://www.mecum.com/auctions/las-vegas-motorcycles-2026/?utm_source=CycleWorld&utm_medium=Podcast3&utm_campaign=01142026
In this week's episode, Cycle World Technical Editor Kevin Cameron and Editor-in-Chief Mark Hoyer talk about racers and crew chiefs and how their seeming supernatural powers relate to their humanity. Also, we have learned so much from these talented, intelligent people and share many stories about some of the greatest road racing riders and tuners of all time, how they win and how they progress. Join us!
Looking to buy? Get prequalified
https://octane.co/flex/1?a=171
Become a Channel Partner: https://octanemedia.co/home/become-an-advertiser/
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6CLI74xvMBFLDOC1tQaCOQ
Read more from Cycle World: https://www.cycleworld.com/
Buy Cycle World Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/cycleworld
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00Welcome to the Cycle World Podcast. I'm Mark Hoyer, Editor-in-Chief. I'm with Kevin Cameron, our Technical Editor.
00:00:05This week's topic is, are riders and crew chiefs human?
00:00:11We won't give that away.
00:00:14Not until later.
00:00:16Before we get started, this podcast is sponsored by Mecham Auctions.
00:00:20We've been talking a lot about Mecham.
00:00:22Some, well, just talking a lot about Mecham, because there's a lot going on, the Vegas auctions at the end of this month.
00:00:31It is January 27th through the 31st, Tuesday through Saturday at the South Point Hotel and Casino.
00:00:38It's remarkable. More than 2,000 bikes. Everything you'd ever want to see.
00:00:43I've said this over and over again. I would say it anyway. It's worth going to.
00:00:47You can bid online. You can bid by phone.
00:00:53Biggest recommendation, bid in person, because it's incredibly entertaining.
00:00:58Lots of good food, and if you like to smoke, certainly.
00:01:03It's a great place to go.
00:01:05Anyways, thank you, Mecham, for the sponsorship.
00:01:08Check out the auction. Check out our previous couple podcasts, Picking Bikes from the Auction.
00:01:13We've, somewhere in the about 20 range, went through and picked historic or things we just love and kind of gave a micro history on each bike and talked about the specific examples and historic context and stuff, which I have to thank Kevin Cameron, of course, for.
00:01:30And we love historic context.
00:01:33But let's get to, are riders and crew chiefs human?
00:01:37I think it's an interesting question, and of course, perhaps they are.
00:01:42Well, they are humans who have learned to do something so unusual that it does raise the question.
00:01:51And the problem is getting used to it.
00:01:58Every year when I would drive into Daytona infield through the old tunnel, the one where certain riders would see if they could make the roof of their rental car contact.
00:02:11Just going to tell that story.
00:02:13The roof of the tunnel?
00:02:14Yeah.
00:02:16I would see the bikes moving around at, I almost said, death-defying speeds.
00:02:24But going right along, and I'm thinking to myself, this is, I don't want anybody doing this.
00:02:31This isn't right.
00:02:33It never became routine for me.
00:02:35So that shows what an outsider I really am.
00:02:39I didn't stay long enough to be a real member.
00:02:43But there's no question that those people are doing extraordinary things.
00:02:49But there's always Fred Astaire.
00:02:54Is Fred Astaire, was he human?
00:02:56Yeah.
00:02:57He was awfully good at what he did.
00:03:01Well, I got to say, the first time, many years ago, I went to the Daytona Supercross.
00:03:07And I'd watched plenty of Supercross sitting in the stands.
00:03:12But at Daytona, I got to be on the ground, standing next to jumps.
00:03:16And I could not believe it.
00:03:18It looks balletic from the stands.
00:03:22I mean, it's hardcore.
00:03:23And, you know, loud sounds and big jumps.
00:03:26You have a heavy appreciation for it, but standing on the ground next to a jump and having Ricky Carmichael land on a triple and just what you feel through the earth every time one of those guys lands, the fork compression, it's just absolutely inhuman.
00:03:46It is.
00:03:46Grumman used to test their aircraft at their facility on Long Island by hoisting them up a fixed distance and letting them drop.
00:03:56And what those guys in Supercross are doing is making one carrier landing after another.
00:04:02And they have to do it quite accurately.
00:04:06I say, no hooks.
00:04:08Yeah.
00:04:09We hope.
00:04:10Yep.
00:04:11So, are they human?
00:04:17Well, it's curious because there are writers like the late Anthony Gobert who were what Mike Baldwin hated to hear spoken in his presence, naturals.
00:04:34When I asked Gobert about how he learned to do what he did, he said, I didn't do anything.
00:04:44He said, I reckon I could just always ride a motorbike.
00:04:50Well, there was a tremendous amount of tension between him and Matt Mladen.
00:04:56And between him and almost anybody else, such as when he worked for Muzzy.
00:05:04But those two guys as rivals and coming at this from such a different angle, because Mladen was like disciplined king.
00:05:11Like, not that he didn't lack talent.
00:05:13It's just his drive is what brought him to where he was.
00:05:18Came from a different direction, yes.
00:05:20He grounded out.
00:05:22You know, there was a story where somebody said he allowed himself one latte per week is the story I heard.
00:05:34Because, you know, he was being extremely precise and working out and analytical.
00:05:40And Gobert, man, I mean, Gobert would show up, barely zip into his leathers during last qualifying.
00:05:47He wasn't at the track at all, showed up, last qualifying, zipping up his leathers over his bloated self.
00:05:56Not in considerable bulk?
00:05:58Yeah, bloated.
00:06:00And then he just went out there and knocked off a lap record and got pole.
00:06:05At the very least, he got pole.
00:06:07And came back in and was laying on the pit wall and asked his guys how it went.
00:06:12And he said, well, you got pole.
00:06:13Okay, great.
00:06:14And that would not sit well with Matt, who grounded out.
00:06:20But, you know.
00:06:21Well, Mike Baldwin hated to hear that phrase.
00:06:25He's a natural.
00:06:27Because he said everything that he did, he had to learn.
00:06:30And a favorite was that when he was a young clubman, age 19, he was racing against the established guys in the club.
00:06:42And he couldn't get off corners with those guys.
00:06:46He would gas it until the front end went away.
00:06:50And the other guys would just disappear.
00:06:53And he's, what is happening here?
00:06:56I'm looking at them.
00:06:57I don't see them doing anything different.
00:07:00So, he went home and he got the bathroom scale from upstairs and the bathroom scale from the downstairs bathroom.
00:07:06And a friend to hold the bike up while he got on it and tried things.
00:07:12And he found that he could make a substantial difference in the weight on the front tire by moving around on the motorcycle.
00:07:19And the next race weekend, he was right with those guys.
00:07:23It's a perfect example of how great motorcycle racing is because of how participatory the pilot is.
00:07:31Yes.
00:07:31You don't move around inside a car.
00:07:34No, indeed.
00:07:35Although the camera inside Kevin Schwantz's bush racer or whatever he was doing years ago, he would stick his knee out entering corners in the truck or car or whatever he was racing.
00:07:47He's not the only road racer who's done that.
00:07:50When they used to get the vans out to dry the track in Canadian events, you'd see knees popping out.
00:07:57Well, Marco Malandri rode lots of different classes, including MotoGP and World Superbike 250.
00:08:08And I remember when I saw him for the first time, he was a, or let's say he appeared to be a happy teenager galloping down the grassy lawn in front of Aprilia and leaping over the fence to go pick up his ride.
00:08:24And his career eventually came to an end and he found himself trying to get across to BMW engineers the difference between Formula One and MotoGP, or in this case, World Superbike.
00:08:48Because he had seen Troy Corsair, who did okay in World Supers, start on the BMW, lead the race, and then go backwards and finish 13th.
00:09:06Now that is dramatic.
00:09:09And you're not tempted to say Corsair was doing it wrong because he'd done it right so many times on other brands.
00:09:17So, here's what Marco Malandri told the BMW engineers.
00:09:23In Formula One, you can work to the data.
00:09:27Those cars are covered with the regulation number of sensors, and they are many.
00:09:36But on two wheels, the rider can do nothing if he lacks confidence.
00:09:47Therefore, motorcycles must be developed through the rider's input.
00:09:55And that was the missing element.
00:09:57And what was going on was that BMW were well known as masters of Formula One horsepower.
00:10:08They came into the class and started winning races, and they know that business.
00:10:15But they were building to the wrong concept.
00:10:19And as we've seen in later years, they built to the right concept and became a powerful force in the class, World Supers.
00:10:28So, this has to do with communication.
00:10:35The most important communication link in motorcycle riding, let alone racing, is between the rider and the motorcycle.
00:10:43Because a properly developed motorcycle has a series of messages that it sends to the rider as he or she approaches the limit of grip.
00:10:59And unfortunately, the long-running trend in 500 two-stroke GP was towards stiffer and stiffer chassis until finally there came that day when Wayne Rainey said,
00:11:16We have chatter, we have hop, and we have skating, and we don't know what to do about it.
00:11:22Because the long-running trend had finally conflicted with the need not only for grip and stability and so forth,
00:11:33but for proper communication between the bike and the rider.
00:11:37So, the rider is not flying on instruments.
00:11:41Well, I did this corner this way last lap, so I'm going to reproduce everything I did last lap, to the best of my recollection, this lap.
00:11:52And this is, of course, what happened to Casey Stoner when Ducati built their extremely rigid carbon fiber bike in 2009.
00:12:03And this business of communication between the motorcycle and the rider is something that constantly requires adjustment.
00:12:16And this was why, when Mick Doohan was riding for Honda, this is why he forbade any changes to the motorcycle unless he was aware of them and agreed to them.
00:12:37This is what I think, you need a high priest of motorcycle development who gets the message from the motorcycle.
00:12:47You need someone involved in that who actually understands how the bike should feel.
00:12:52We see it in street testing.
00:12:54We see it in clutches, like clutches for manufacturers that have zero feel.
00:12:58Like, I'm talking street bikes.
00:12:59But, I mean, I think the CBR 900 RR is a good example of a really excellent street bike in the 90s.
00:13:09And then, if you tried to race that bike, the shortness of the trail, at a certain point when you pushed it really hard, the shortness of the trail would make the front end information disappear.
00:13:20It just went away.
00:13:21I rode them back-to-back with the 1998, where they kept the 16-inch front wheel with the tall profile tire, which is close to a 17 or identical.
00:13:31And they lengthened the trail.
00:13:33I always say they fixed the trail.
00:13:35Yeah, they fixed it.
00:13:36Because if you pounded that thing back-to-back with the previous version, which I did, you got front-end feedback all the way to as hard as I could ride it.
00:13:45Yeah.
00:13:46And it's important, and having that information, getting something so rigid that you can't feel it.
00:13:52If you don't know, you always called it the safety net.
00:13:58Sure.
00:13:59Right?
00:13:59Safety net.
00:14:00I've done it.
00:14:00I can feel it.
00:14:01I know it's going to happen.
00:14:03I get communication before it breaks away.
00:14:09Kind of important.
00:14:11Yeah, kind of important.
00:14:12Well, Kenny talked about risk minimization.
00:14:29Today, we talk about the two basic styles in road racing, which are the corner speed style,
00:14:40which was the original European style.
00:14:43That's when people said, once you've committed to the line, you can't make any adjustment.
00:14:49And the reason for that was that you are at the grip limit close enough to say you've reduced your margin to the minimum you can handle.
00:15:02And if you're at that point, all the way around the corner, you can't adjust your line.
00:15:07You can't make it tighter because that involves asking for more grip.
00:15:12And if you make it looser, well, you can do that, but at the cost of running wide.
00:15:19And Kenny and other people with dirt track experience have said, if a dirt track is exactly right, you can go quite fast.
00:15:31You can lap at good lap times on a big line.
00:15:36But in dirt track, the surface is constantly changing.
00:15:40Water is evaporating from it.
00:15:42It's getting darker and cooler as the evening and afternoon becomes evening.
00:15:47So what happens when the big line becomes too risky is that you revert to the risk minimization line,
00:15:59which is to rush up to a point in the corner.
00:16:04During that rush, breaking or decelerating, you are controlling the grip.
00:16:11You can make it less.
00:16:13You have choices.
00:16:14Yes, you have choices.
00:16:15You're in control of it.
00:16:17You're not committed.
00:16:19Then you make the motorcycle turn in a limited zone and at a lower than maximal speed to make the turning low risk.
00:16:33And then lift and accelerate.
00:16:35As brief as possible.
00:16:35Yeah, it's kind of a football shaped line.
00:16:39I was learning to ride on the track and I went to a school with Jason Pridmore.
00:16:45I was riding a Hayabusa and I was riding a corner speed line essentially because that was how I had kind of learned to ride.
00:16:53And I was limited.
00:16:56I got on the back of the bike with Jason Pridmore, this big, big loaf of dude.
00:17:01And he took me through the corner and he said, you know, he talked to me beforehand.
00:17:06He said, well, you're, you're going in with a very good entry speed, but you're cornering for too long.
00:17:13You know, you need to slow it down in the middle of the corner.
00:17:15I'm like, okay.
00:17:16And it's one thing to hear that, but it's something else to sit on the back of that bike and go in real hard on a Katana 1100 or 750 or whatever it was, a squishy street bike.
00:17:28And dang, man, the visualization of seeing that and feeling that of diving in and having the bike really pivot at an apex and then pulling the trigger.
00:17:37I mean, on a Hayabusa, that's everything because you have all the power in the world to exit that corner and it enters pretty good.
00:17:45But that, that cornering line was a revelation.
00:17:48And of course, Kenny Roberts was right.
00:17:50Yeah.
00:17:51And long before that, there was Gary Nixon riding, for example, against Cal Raybourn.
00:18:05And Raybourn was a big line rider and he was very fast at it.
00:18:12And that's how his Harleys were set up.
00:18:17Nixon did not race racetracks.
00:18:19He raced other men.
00:18:21So a primary goal of his style when riding against this type of rider is to arrive at the other rider's apex and force him to lift, screwing up his corner and delaying his acceleration and then leaving, leave the scene.
00:18:45And people said, yeah, Nixon used to put on a real low gear so he could scoot out of there.
00:18:55And they were describing point and shoot versus corner speed riding.
00:19:03Classic example in Formula 7, Formula USA, when Rich Oliver was riding his 250 against guys like Chuck Graves on like 900 or yeah, 900 CC GSXR 750 chassis.
00:19:19Another good sized gentleman.
00:19:20Where they're shoehorning like, you know, Formula USA was a really entertaining thing, but that was a very classic thing to watch at Willow Springs is because their lines, they would converge, but everybody was doing something different.
00:19:33And if unless Rich was in front, he couldn't maintain a lead because he couldn't ride the line that he needed to ride on a 250.
00:19:40But if he got out there and he could zip around, then his tires would last longer and Rich could win one of those races on a 250 versus all that other stuff is pretty cool.
00:19:50But it was very classic because they, there was a lot of conflict in, in where you were in the corner, just based on the line you were taking.
00:19:58Well, Steve Whitelock was, worked with Yvonne de Hamel, racing Kawasaki's in the seventies.
00:20:12And years later, he became the tech director for World Superbike.
00:20:18And everything that Steve ever did was controversial.
00:20:24And, uh, being tech director was certainly one of his, uh, peak accomplishments.
00:20:32And I think he enjoyed every moment of it, but what he was doing made sense to me.
00:20:40It made sense to him.
00:20:41Namely, he would, when there was a choice of some equipment being legal or not, he would favor.
00:20:54Uh, changes that restored the status quo, the, the, even Steven.
00:21:00And if another team were bringing some big gun, like a new cylinder head or what have you, uh, he would say to them, well, you fellows can do that.
00:21:13But, you know, um, Yamaha over here just itching to bring their, uh, whatever it is.
00:21:20And this would be a good excuse for them to do it.
00:21:23Do you, do you want to play that game?
00:21:27And, uh, well, cause he was, he was trying to prevent anyone from scooting out front and disappearing.
00:21:36He wanted to, uh, he was a game monitor.
00:21:39He was, he was trying to keep it, even play.
00:21:43So there was another group of people whom I think of as the moralists and they wanted a literal interpretation of Holy Writ in the form of the class rules.
00:21:57And they had the idea that they would get a sample chassis from each manufacturer and they would go in the tech truck and travel from race to race.
00:22:08And they would compare these master creations with what anyone was running.
00:22:14Well, meanwhile, um, I'm walking around in the paddock someplace sometime and Muzzy is there and he says, come in here.
00:22:26I want to show you something.
00:22:28And he said, look at the steering head on this frame.
00:22:32And I could see that it was, there's the steering head.
00:22:36Of course, there's a fair size pot and the bearings were off to one side.
00:22:42But he said, the way we learned about this was we thought maybe we should just put one of these things on the mill and put a bar through the swing arm pivot and put that on, on, uh, uh, uh, risers and check on the alignment of the steering head and its position.
00:23:02And it was nowhere near right.
00:23:06So we, uh, got in there with a boring bar and fixed it.
00:23:12Oh, the early days.
00:23:13Yeah.
00:23:13The early days of GMD CompuTrack.
00:23:15It was just like, there was no truth.
00:23:20Every frame was wrong.
00:23:22And then, you know, they were, they had reputations for like, oh yeah, if you crash one of these, forget it.
00:23:27It's going to be way out.
00:23:28You know?
00:23:29And they, they were finding, uh, excursions from truth up to four millimeters in some cases.
00:23:37And, uh, of course the thing is that frames were welded and, uh, the steering head was already made when things were welded onto it.
00:23:54And so you're, if you're, you have any experience with welding, normally you try to weld some on the left and then weld some on the right so that the distortions are taking turns and that you will end up here rather than here or here.
00:24:11And, uh, so that's not always a successful process.
00:24:19And that BMW, for example, and it may be general practice when the chassis is finished, it goes for a rough measurement.
00:24:29Oh, it needs to be yanked this way.
00:24:30And some Turkish gentleman with a flowing mustache puts a great big bar through the thing and out at the end, they, they give it a few yanks and check it again.
00:24:40And when it looks good, that's it.
00:24:44Well, the classic, yeah, classic videos from the Triumph and, and Harley factories back in the day with the, uh, open forge where they're.
00:24:52Ah, furnace brazing.
00:24:53Yes.
00:24:53Burner's brazing where they're just dipping the frame in and then, you know, a burly guy in a leather apron with a giant hammer starts whacking the daylights out of it to get it into the ballpark.
00:25:05So it's, it's, uh, ongoing.
00:25:07So the moralists discovered that, uh, what they had in the form of those several chassis was not a standard that for anything.
00:25:19A bad ruler.
00:25:21Yes.
00:25:21Um, a ruler made in haste and, uh, Steve was ultimately, um, replaced by the moralists who had their issues as well.
00:25:36So that's how that kind of thing goes.
00:25:41I liked your Steve Whitelock story about Yvonne, uh, racing the triple and having, you know, like losing a cylinder, but keeping right.
00:25:49That's so good.
00:25:50Uh, Whitelock is looking for his rider and he goes to, to, uh, pit in to wait for him.
00:25:58And here he comes with this motorcycle that's running and it's making this awful racketing noise.
00:26:04And Steve can see that the connecting rod has punched several large holes in the crankcase.
00:26:15If I wasn't, you could have saved it.
00:26:19You could, you could, I'm going to have to, everything's going to have to be changed.
00:26:23You know, Yvonne just smiled and said,
00:26:26They pay me to ride.
00:26:29They don't pay me to walk.
00:26:33That's a very Yvonne Duhamel.
00:26:35I mean, I only met him a few times, but it's a very Yvonne Duhamel thing to say.
00:26:39The humor was always right at the surface.
00:26:41And if there was any disturbance of the surface, you would see it.
00:26:46Yeah.
00:26:47Miguel, his son, Miguel Duhamel was a great guy to cover when I was covering that stuff at Cycle News.
00:26:53And just going to any of those races, he was talking to like the post-race press conference.
00:27:00Miguel would come in and say, like, there'd be that corner at Road Atlanta where everybody's doing a million.
00:27:06And he'd say, he'd just say, oh man, we were going through there.
00:27:10And I thought this guy was going to put the kicks down, down for his like rap or somebody.
00:27:14Because he was trying to get him to pass him so that they could lead him.
00:27:18And he'd, you know, draft him to win the race or whatever.
00:27:20It was good stuff.
00:27:21Miguel was great.
00:27:24Well, I think it was Ken Vrieke that told the story of watching Schwantz's Yoshimura tryout at Willow.
00:27:36And they would have a short list of riders that they thought they'd like to see, possibilities.
00:27:46And he said, this one particular corner, Schwantz's is all over the place.
00:27:53Every lap, something different.
00:27:56And then I realized, well, there's a bump there.
00:28:00And it's right where he wants to be, except that it upsets the motorcycle so that it suddenly slides with a change of direction.
00:28:09So what was, what was his solution?
00:28:16He got the motorcycle sliding before hitting the bump so that there was no upset.
00:28:22It was just a little pip in the slide.
00:28:26And his control of line and so forth was not at sacrifice.
00:28:34And he did get the job.
00:28:39Now you other fellas can go now.
00:28:42Job's taken.
00:28:43But here's a curious thing.
00:28:48We've always seen that Schwantz wanted to win every corner.
00:28:54And he wanted it more than he wanted to win every championship.
00:28:58And I had seen him at Turn 11 Laguna on the ground because he violated Kenny's adage, which is ride slow, corner slow, and fast corners fast.
00:29:18And that sounds like, well, that's stupid.
00:29:21Fast corners are fast.
00:29:22But what he meant was, take it easy in slow corners because all of the slow pokes are pushing there because that's where they dare to do so.
00:29:35The place you should use your special talents is in fast corners where everyone else is white as a sheet and just hoping to get it over with.
00:29:45That's when you come past those guys who are then left wondering if you're human.
00:29:52And they won't mess with you again, you hope.
00:29:58So that kind of difference is interesting to me because, on the other hand, oh, and the thing, of course, about Schwantz is we all saw that he was loaded with talent and that his one championship was out of proportion with that.
00:30:18And, of course, being the very competitive person that he is, that was how he rode without what you might call an advisable level of caution.
00:30:37A thing of beauty, though.
00:30:38Yeah, so on the other hand, Lawson, the race would start and you'd see that he was sort of doing something.
00:30:50He was mashing things up some way.
00:30:52And if he decided this right here is a third place motorcycle, he was damned if he was going to try to make a winner out of a sow's ear.
00:31:05Because trying to go fast on a motorcycle that doesn't want to is a way to hurt yourself.
00:31:13Motorcycle racing is not about taking risks.
00:31:18It's about controlling risk and rejecting excessive risk.
00:31:24Now, you might want to say, and this is something that fans seem to be attracted to.
00:31:35You might say that a go-for-it rider is emotionally more appealing than an analytical rider.
00:31:47But analytical seems to do the job more often than emotion.
00:31:54So, there were John Kaczynski and Cork Bellington having it out in a 250 race, AMA 250 race.
00:32:05And there was this one corner in which Kaczynski would outbrake Bellington big time and then run wide.
00:32:13Because one of the things that you end up with when you've outbraked someone is some speed that you have to get rid of it somewhere.
00:32:21And there is no reverse throttle that will suck that speed back into the fuel tank.
00:32:30So, Bellington would cross lines and accelerate out from under Kaczynski who was out at the edge of the track.
00:32:42So, this went on lap after lap.
00:32:45Finally, Bellington took to waving to him as he would cross under and accelerate away.
00:32:53So, it was...
00:32:56John had a method and he was going to stick with it until it worked.
00:33:01And this was a day when it didn't.
00:33:03So, Kaczynski was a fascinating sort of person because he went and did Hollywood real estate, didn't he?
00:33:16He made a bunch of money out there.
00:33:18Yeah, Bel Air.
00:33:18Yeah.
00:33:19And so, that means that he had the ability to read the other card player's hand from their faces.
00:33:29But when he was riding the Castrol bike in Europe, he was so persistent in these behaviors that they tried to discipline him.
00:33:55We don't want you to say things in the press conference that are embarrassing to Honda Motor Company or to Castrol.
00:34:03Do you understand that?
00:34:04Oh, yeah.
00:34:05Yeah, I understand it.
00:34:07And here is a list of things that you are forbidden to say.
00:34:11But I was told by the Castrol manager that in general, they had learned that the harder you tried to change a rider or driver's behavior, the more wacky they became.
00:34:28So, my particular story about this was I was sent to interview John and I knew it was not going to be easy.
00:34:36So, at one point, I used one of my techniques.
00:34:42I call it a technique, but it was something that had worked and then I decided to call it something.
00:34:50And what you do basically is you start to tell a story of which the person you're interviewing is the hero.
00:34:58And then you let him take over and finish the story in his own words.
00:35:04No.
00:35:05So, he started, he got sucked in, but another part of his mind was saying, this guy's playing you.
00:35:14You've got to stop him.
00:35:16And what happened was he stopped in mid-sentence and he started in with what he'd been taught.
00:35:23I'm sure that Honda are working hard around the clock to provide me with the best possible motorcycle.
00:35:29And all Honda employees are bending every effort toward victory.
00:35:35Yeah, John was...
00:35:36Can I quote you on that?
00:35:38Obviously, a very perceptive and talented person.
00:35:41No question.
00:35:42I mean, I went to Suzuka to cover the dream team of John Kaczynski and Freddie Spencer with Irv Kanemoto as the crew chief for the Suzuka 8-hour 1999.
00:35:55And interviewing John Kaczynski at that time, it was really challenging.
00:36:01I think that was the place where he was talking about the Honda socks.
00:36:04Because he had Honda socks and we were, you know, I was trying to execute some kind of interview to get a feeling for what's it like to be riding with Freddie and to be with Irv Kanemoto.
00:36:17How's the bike?
00:36:19You know, just trying to get a feeling for the story.
00:36:22Where are you coming from?
00:36:22How are you adapting to all of this?
00:36:24And he was telling me about how great his socks were for Honda.
00:36:28And he was just, he was doing something that you would do in a high stress situation potentially is, and he didn't know me particularly well, like he'd seen me around before.
00:36:36But he was just protecting himself as you would.
00:36:39And I went to Irv and this was a good insight from Irv.
00:36:42I said, hey, Irv, you know, I'm trying to interview John and it's like, it's kind of, it's a little bit challenging.
00:36:49And I was just looking for, you know, Irv would know, right?
00:36:51Irv would know how to, how to befriend John or, or break through and, and talk about something.
00:36:57And Irv just said, well, you know, what's the most stressful part of your job?
00:37:02You know, the worst thing, think of the worst stress that you're ever going to feel and then double that, you know, just really amplify that to the highest level of stress you could ever think of.
00:37:11And then have your, your work day.
00:37:13Then imagine being interrupted all the time by people asking inane questions.
00:37:18And I got, I thought to myself, well, I hope I'm not asking any questions, you know, but I, it, it was a fair observation and it, it gave me a little bit more sensitivity.
00:37:30You know, I watched a journalist at, at Laguna, uh, minutes after Kyle Wyman crashed, uh, in turn 11, uh, going to win the race and crashed.
00:37:42And I watched the journalist who was, he's still sitting in his pit.
00:37:47He's still processing this and dude just crashes into him in a, what I would consider a private space.
00:37:55Certainly.
00:37:56And it's, uh, that's an, that was a case where a writer acted superhuman because he didn't choke that guy for asking a lot of questions at a, at a time where you gotta let him breathe a little, you know?
00:38:09Uh, uh, writers are subject to performance anxiety.
00:38:15Oh.
00:38:16This suggests that they may be human.
00:38:18Do you, do you even perform if you don't have anxiety?
00:38:21I don't know.
00:38:22I mean, doesn't, if you're not worried, will you try?
00:38:26This is, this is a problem, certainly.
00:38:28But, uh, this causes certain fidgets and other manifestations of tension.
00:38:41And one I remember particularly is it's nearly time to start rolling the thing to the grid.
00:38:48And it's sitting there on two stands with no wheels.
00:38:52And the reason is tire choice deferred.
00:38:58Can't make up his mind.
00:39:01Oh, the sky's darkening.
00:39:02The wind is rising.
00:39:04Um, how is it going to rain?
00:39:06Oh, dear.
00:39:07I just.
00:39:09But one thing we know.
00:39:10You can't finish any motorcycle race without wheels.
00:39:18And, but some riders would just push on like that.
00:39:21Oh, it's on the one hand.
00:39:23Oh, on the other hand.
00:39:24And then.
00:39:27Once upon a time, um, at Laguna, we had decided to run the old crankshafts through practice and
00:39:35then change Saturday night.
00:39:37Well, Saturday afternoon came and my rider said, you know, these, these crankshafts seem
00:39:46really sweet.
00:39:48They're, I don't think we have to go through all this.
00:39:53And I'm thinking, what is her name?
00:39:57Which one of these babes here has caught their eye?
00:40:03Uh, because.
00:40:07Suddenly he had urgent other uses for his evening.
00:40:13And it's not that racers are such Lotharios as it is that what could be a better diversion
00:40:23from terrible anxiety about how you're going to do Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon.
00:40:32So these are things that, uh, crew chief has to look for.
00:40:38Well, one of my favorites, Marcel Dwinker, who worked with Tom Sykes and world supers for
00:40:46quite a while.
00:40:46And Marcel is a no-nonsense kind of a no-nonsense kind of person.
00:40:52He says, the rider talks to me.
00:40:58The tire guy, the suspension guy, the engine guy, the data guy.
00:41:04They talk to me, they don't talk to the rider.
00:41:10Well, why is that?
00:41:11Because every one of those people wants to be the rider's best friend, wants to present
00:41:20his case as the one aspect of the motorcycle's performance that can really make the difference.
00:41:28And he said, this is hard to get through.
00:41:34So I present it as, uh, one person must look at all the data in order to make sensible choices.
00:41:43We can't allow any one technician responsible for one area of the motorcycle's behavior.
00:41:53No freelancing.
00:41:55Yep.
00:41:56No freelancing.
00:41:57None of that.
00:41:58What we call it in the fire department when somebody's not, you know, they just decide
00:42:02to do something else.
00:42:04No, we don't do that.
00:42:06Yeah.
00:42:06Gotta have an organized operation, especially if it's big.
00:42:10So, uh, that kind of thing is, is important because communication, um, between humans.
00:42:20There are a lot of things that can, that can, uh, affect the outcome.
00:42:28So, um, we all have familiar, we've seen the TV or we've walked in there and seen that
00:42:35in person, the rider has just, uh, finished a practice and the acolytes are sitting around
00:42:42him in a semi-circle and the rider has a piece of paper with a map of the circuit.
00:42:48The corners are numbered and they are going around the circuit corner by corner.
00:42:55And the rider is saying how the motorcycle is behaving there.
00:43:00If he would like some change, if there are difficulties or if it's the difficulty is
00:43:07synchronizing the output of one corner to the input of the next corner, rather like the
00:43:14famous story of the gas turbine that was designed, each of whose stages was designed by a separate
00:43:21engineering team.
00:43:24Each corner is related to the others.
00:43:27So, uh, this, uh, placid scene is seething with human interest and with people seeking
00:43:40to be the rider's best friend.
00:43:42So this was Dwinker's response to that was to say, I am in charge.
00:43:48The rider will talk to me.
00:43:50The technicians will talk to me and I will make the decisions.
00:43:55And that was the same setup that Irv Kanemoto required that someone has to be in charge.
00:44:03We can't just say, well, uh, I really liked this guy with the data guy and I got some good
00:44:09results with him.
00:44:10So I'm going to listen to him and I'm going to sort of turn the old deaf ear in other directions.
00:44:18So yes, there's all sorts of interpersonal stuff going on in the paddock and it has to
00:44:26be controlled to some extent.
00:44:28Yeah.
00:44:29Not, uh, dictatorially necessarily.
00:44:32Maybe it can be fairly humane, but it is a job.
00:44:37This is not a friendship club.
00:44:43I think the performance anxiety, going back to that, that it's for me personally, it's,
00:44:48uh, it sets up a conflict that a little bit of a conflict because you like it, you know,
00:44:54you, you want to brace and you want the state of racing that your mind goes into.
00:44:59Yes.
00:45:00And, uh, when things are going well, I like the idea.
00:45:06I can't speak to what Mark Marquez said.
00:45:08Does Mark Marquez get into a rhythm?
00:45:11Do those guys get into a rhythm?
00:45:12I get into a rhythm.
00:45:14If I'm succeeding, I get into a rhythm that is fast enough to do the job.
00:45:20And I feel like I have something in the pocket if I need to use it.
00:45:24And I've done that where somebody would pass me and I've got to go, okay, I need, I need
00:45:29more here and more here.
00:45:30And you feel like you have that reference.
00:45:34Um, but it's tremendous anxiety, but like a good anxiety before the race, but you know,
00:45:42like not sleeping, finally falling asleep.
00:45:44And then the hotel I'm staying at, the fire alarms go off and it's two o'clock in the morning
00:45:48and the strobes are going and I'm like, who's doing this to me?
00:45:53You know, like I just got into the land of not, I, you know, and just showing up and being
00:45:58like butterflies and knowing you have the first race and the, how's the track going to be?
00:46:03And it's going to be Dewey is going to be, is there grips?
00:46:05How fast should I go in the first three laps?
00:46:07Or, well, that guy's going fast.
00:46:09I better go faster.
00:46:11It's all of those unknowns.
00:46:13You know, you're seeking this kind of order in the face of all these unknowns.
00:46:16It's really, it's wonderful, but it is stressful.
00:46:19It is.
00:46:20At the same time, uh, every rider is looking at the riders he has to deal with now and
00:46:27is evaluating their strengths and weaknesses and looking for where to attack them.
00:46:34I just, I just thought of Matt Maladon and Ben Bostrom and at Colorado where Ben was
00:46:42absolutely convinced that Matt blocked him in qualifying.
00:46:48And, uh, it was, this was a big deal that season.
00:46:51And, uh, it was, I think 2000, it could have been 99.
00:46:54And, uh, I called, I did a season wrap up story for the magazine and I called Matt Maladon
00:47:01in Australia.
00:47:02He was already there and I did an interview with him and I, we were just going through
00:47:06the question and I said, okay, I got to ask you, you know, Colorado and Ben Bostrom.
00:47:09A lot of people are saying that, you know, and Ben himself is saying you intentionally
00:47:14blocked him.
00:47:14You know, did you do anything wrong there?
00:47:17Now, mate slept like a baby.
00:47:22That's what that's finding information about your rival.
00:47:26And, and maybe he obviously did something and it had a huge effect on Ben and it wasn't
00:47:33just beating him on the racetrack.
00:47:35It was beating him in his head.
00:47:37Well, uh, one way that Freddie Spencer appeared to be a completely intuitive rider is the number
00:47:47of times when, uh, Irv Kanemoto might say, well, did you get any idea of what revs are
00:47:56turning at this certain point in this turn?
00:47:58And he raised his hands up to imaginary handlebars and say, oh, I'm real sorry.
00:48:06I, I just didn't look and that he was doing all these wonderful things almost unconsciously.
00:48:17But when I asked him about his, how he learned to recover the front end, when it went away,
00:48:29he told a very sane and sensible story.
00:48:33He said, there was these two dirt tracks in Kentucky.
00:48:37And he said, they weren't so much ovals as they were kind of football shaped.
00:48:41So you, you're playing with it.
00:48:44The corner, the corner radius wasn't constant.
00:48:47He said, kind of let you play with it, with the front end a lot.
00:48:52And he said, I found out a couple of things that way.
00:48:55And I got to thinking, what if that didn't work on pavement?
00:49:02He might, he might have an advantage.
00:49:06So he decided that he would try it on the 250 at Loudoun and it worked.
00:49:14And I know that he was interviewed by another journalist about that race.
00:49:20And that Freddie had said, I, I just learned something that race and it worked real well.
00:49:27And I was able to get a good result.
00:49:30Well, can you tell us what, what it was that you learned?
00:49:34Nope.
00:49:36I think, yeah, there's, there's plenty of obfuscation there in quotes.
00:49:41And when the journalists ask you, um, years ago, I read a quote about riding technique that
00:49:46Freddie Spencer gave, and I think it was to Haney Ray Abrams in, uh,
00:49:50Cycle News.
00:49:51I was going through the archive at Cycle News when I was working there and I was reading
00:49:54this old story and it said they were asking about use of the rear brake because it had
00:49:59kind of come into the discussion of the people in the paddock and riding technique.
00:50:04And at that time, Haney asked Freddie about using the rear brake.
00:50:08And he's like, rear brake, never touch it.
00:50:11And which was actually probably not true.
00:50:13It could have been true at that time, but I I'm guessing not because it's a tool.
00:50:16And, but he just, he just flatly said, ah, nah, nah, never touch it.
00:50:21And, um, I'm sure he did, you know, and later he did, like when he was doing his school,
00:50:26the Freddie Spencer high performance riding school out in Las Vegas with, uh, Nick Einach,
00:50:30you know, they were talking about that.
00:50:32They, they were talking about, he would enter corners.
00:50:34He was riding a, a BFR 750 or 800, 800, I think.
00:50:40And he would enter the corner and settle the bike.
00:50:43He'd, the first thing he would do is come in on the back and drag the bike down a little
00:50:46bit and then add the front in a really controlled manner.
00:50:50And it was, that's a soft motorcycle for a racetrack.
00:50:52And Freddie would just bring that thing in and just glide through the corner.
00:50:56And then the late Dirk Vandenberg, who was a Honda tester, who was at that same track
00:51:00with us, uh, as part of a, part of the school and a press launch that we were doing.
00:51:05Um, he came in on that same bike and he was, uh, he was just, he was really hard on the
00:51:12controls.
00:51:12He was notorious for being pretty hard on the controls and the bike would dive and it would
00:51:17come, he'd have to release the brakes and he'd get back on.
00:51:20And he did all that.
00:51:21And, and, and Freddie was, you know, Freddie had come through the corner.
00:51:25He showed how to get him, came back.
00:51:26And then here comes Dirk and he's like, now that's not what you want to do.
00:51:29It was really good.
00:51:31It was really fun.
00:51:32We, we did a, we did a cycle news, uh, comparison test there, uh, with Freddie and we had rented
00:51:37a gold Lincoln town car to get to and from the track.
00:51:42And cause all the bikes were at the track and, um, it was really special to get in a gold
00:51:48Lincoln town car with Freddie Spencer driving around the course, talking about the line
00:51:53and what you want to do.
00:51:54And he's like, I want to make it, or I want to let you know about the curbing.
00:51:58And he drops a wheel onto the curbing and it wasn't like the lumpy gator back.
00:52:02They were scoops.
00:52:04And so he drops the wheel onto that and he goes, he says, if you hear that you're about
00:52:09to crash.
00:52:10It was pretty good.
00:52:12It was fun.
00:52:13Yes.
00:52:14You're about to.
00:52:16Well, uh, Mike Baldwin talked about losing the front.
00:52:20Freddie of course made that big discovery of how it could actually be recovered by taking
00:52:26positive action.
00:52:27Namely a whiff of throttle.
00:52:29I think he made it routine.
00:52:30I mean, Mick Doohan would talk about, I want to say it was Noriyuki Haga or somebody else
00:52:35who was really giving him fits.
00:52:38I think it was at Suzuka as a wild card or something.
00:52:41Um, and he, he commented that you can't make a career out of that.
00:52:46Yep.
00:52:47Pushing the front.
00:52:48Cause it's not the same as, as spinning the rear.
00:52:51You can ride that way.
00:52:53He said, I've ridden that way, but you can't do it all day.
00:52:58And Freddie appears to have done it for seasons, seasons.
00:53:03Yes.
00:53:04Anyway, Mike Baldwin at, uh, the Suzuka eight hour.
00:53:09And, um, he said this, this long corner, he said, I could feel the front end is just
00:53:16going.
00:53:18And so what'd you do?
00:53:20I said, he said, I did nothing.
00:53:23He said, I didn't move a muscle.
00:53:25I certainly didn't turn the throttle either way.
00:53:31He said, I'm thinking friction is going to slow me down and the front will grip and I'll
00:53:38finish the corner.
00:53:39And it did.
00:53:40The first time I wrote on slicks was on a CBR 900 RR with custom bridge stones made for
00:53:47that 16 inch front.
00:53:48And I couldn't believe it.
00:53:50I was like flabbergasted at how great the feedback was and how high the grip was.
00:53:57And at Vegas, you go down this, uh, you do a right-hander and you go by the pit and you
00:54:02break for a left, uh, kind of a 90 degree left.
00:54:05And then you do this long, uh, kind of right in the infield.
00:54:09And, um, I just kept throwing it in there harder because nothing was going wrong.
00:54:15And it was the first time I had a really long push on the front end and Mike Baldwin maybe
00:54:19thought about it.
00:54:20All I did was go and I did nothing because I didn't know what to do.
00:54:26And the tire was so good.
00:54:29It just, it did this kind of like long smear and I was pretty rigid.
00:54:33I didn't let the bars cross or anything.
00:54:35My knee was on the ground.
00:54:36Like it was in a good position to, I want to say air quote deal with it.
00:54:39Although I was not, I was just going like, huh?
00:54:43And it did exactly what you said.
00:54:45The bike slowed down and it began to turn again.
00:54:47And I was like, huh?
00:54:49Okay.
00:54:50We won't enter quite that hard next time.
00:54:52Yes.
00:54:52But of course, um, you described that business of entering harder and harder because you must
00:54:59find the limit.
00:55:02And so you'll know where it is.
00:55:04And, um, the object of racing is to win, not to cruise around and look cool.
00:55:12So, um, you're going to try to optimize your performance in every corner.
00:55:17And it's an incremental thing.
00:55:19If you aren't trying a different experiment in every corner, if you're looking at a circuit
00:55:26for the first time, then you're a dumb, dumb.
00:55:29It's the same in street bike testing.
00:55:31I mean, you're really, or any testing you're, you're riding the bike harder and harder until
00:55:35it does something wrong.
00:55:37When I raced a barber a couple of years ago on the BMW, I, I kept entering corners until
00:55:43I got chatter, particularly on the entering the, the last straightaway, you know, there's
00:55:48that left hand or downhill left.
00:55:51And I was setting up pretty tight so that I'd get a good drive and it helped me pass people
00:55:55because I would have power.
00:55:57I would have speed in hand and they couldn't turn the throttle anymore.
00:56:00And they were coming in this way to pass me to get on the front straight.
00:56:03But I was up here.
00:56:04They were pointing to the outside and I can just pull the trigger while I was getting in
00:56:07there pretty hard and yelled in my helmet the first time it happened.
00:56:11Cause it was abrupt and it was, oh, how many Hertz do we think it was?
00:56:17Probably six.
00:56:19It just went, and I, I screamed and I'm like, huh, we got to make note of that.
00:56:25And then I could get to a point where I was turning it.
00:56:27I could feel it coming on and then I would just turn the throttle.
00:56:31Yeah.
00:56:31Cause if loading it on the brakes, I'd get in there and I'd go, and then I just turned
00:56:35the throttle and I could, I could like flirt with it at that point.
00:56:38And I, what I needed to do was go faster at the end of the lap.
00:56:41When you're cresting that hill in the back, I could never make the most of that.
00:56:46And that's where people were catching back up with me.
00:56:48And that's why I was having so much trouble getting on the front straight is
00:56:51cause there was always somebody there cause they'd get, they'd close the gap back.
00:56:55It was, but that's why I like racing.
00:56:57It's fun.
00:56:58It's terrifying.
00:56:59And it is, it's fun.
00:57:01It's analytical.
00:57:02This is what teams do with riders who've lost it.
00:57:05Um, we don't, we don't know if, uh, uh, uh, uh, lost it or if the 25 Ducati was so
00:57:17different from the 24 that it spooked him or that it didn't respond, uh, in the normal
00:57:24way, but, um, that kind of thing can, uh, set a rider back.
00:57:34And what they do in that case is they get a high performance street bike.
00:57:38They take the guy to a circuit that they can rent for cheap.
00:57:42And they say, go out there and have some fun.
00:57:45When you run out of gas, there's a five gallon tin here.
00:57:48We're getting lunch.
00:57:48And the idea is to restore the fun that brought the rider into racing in the first place.
00:58:00The, the joy of discovering something that works.
00:58:05It's definitely fun when it's going right.
00:58:07It is.
00:58:08It is.
00:58:09It's beyond fun.
00:58:10It's, it's, it's, it's nice.
00:58:13It's, it's flow state.
00:58:15It's what you, it's all the things that you talk about, about the human mind and concentration
00:58:19and focus.
00:58:20And the, we've talked about it many times being on the bike and, and, um, there's a guy,
00:58:26Ben Younger, he's a TV, uh, producer type person.
00:58:29And he also does a lot of motorcycle stuff.
00:58:31He coaches at Nick Einach's school, the Yamaha, uh, school of champions and, um, champions riding
00:58:39school and he said, he's, he articulated it very well.
00:58:44I, I try to ride fast enough that I can think about nothing else.
00:58:49And, uh, I think that's part of what we seek when we get on a motorcycle is getting that
00:58:53wonderful focus.
00:58:54And it's more concentrated when you're lined up and you're waiting for the board and you're
00:59:00starting last or whatever, wherever you are, you got your hand in the air.
00:59:04So the, the wave behind you doesn't start and you, you're showing the flag person that
00:59:09you're not starting.
00:59:10And then you're, you know, your, your time is next and then you're ready and you've got
00:59:15your RPM and you're going to try to get off the line just hard enough.
00:59:19You're looking for that edge for the entire time you're on the track.
00:59:22And that is a great place to be.
00:59:25Well, also, of course, for, for the ordinary, um, non-racing, uh, motorcyclist, the motorcycle
00:59:38is a way to push out unpleasant material from your consciousness and relax.
00:59:48Because as you say, to go just fast enough that you can't think of anything else.
00:59:53That's a wonderful way to put it.
00:59:55And I think riding, um, you know, you share, you share something with Mark Marquez or even
01:00:03Don Cane, you know, I got, I got close to them.
01:00:06Because they're human.
01:00:07They're human.
01:00:08Yes.
01:00:08They're very similar to us.
01:00:10Normal folks.
01:00:11Yeah.
01:00:12And I'm riding, I'm riding the, yeah, normal folks.
01:00:15And I'm right.
01:00:16You know, you ride to, uh, to share that you ride on the track to see.
01:00:20Maybe, maybe you get a whiff of what Kyle Wyman feels like on a, on a bagger or Don Cane on
01:00:27a Ducati, you know, scraping the shift lever off, which the Ducati tech has never seen because
01:00:33he can lean more than anyone.
01:00:35Yeah.
01:00:37It's true.
01:00:39It can also be, it can also be very methodical as was described by Colin Edwards in the case
01:00:45of the RC 51, um, versus, uh, the Ducati Troy Bayless.
01:00:53Um, they knew that the, that the RC 51 was too stiff, but they didn't know how stiff, how
01:01:02much less stiff it should be.
01:01:05So they prepared a kit of parts, alternate parts, and they softened the chassis laterally
01:01:13in steps.
01:01:16Colin said, each time they would soften it, I would find that the chatter limit was higher.
01:01:23So I could push harder before, uh, the chatter took control away from me.
01:01:29And he said, finally, it got, so it was good enough that I could, I could just break Bayless
01:01:37and, uh, win the championship.
01:01:41I always enjoyed interviewing Colin.
01:01:44It became, it became an engineering problem.
01:01:46This business of incrementally approaching, uh, an optimum.
01:01:51Pardon me.
01:01:52Well, thanks.
01:01:56That's it for today, folks.
01:01:57Uh, once again, thanks to Mecham for, uh, Mecham Auctions sponsoring, uh, the Cycle
01:02:02World Podcast, January 27th through the 31st, South Point Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas.
01:02:07We appreciate you listening.
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