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Engineer Trilogy #2
Evil For Evil: The Engineer Trilogy: Book Two
The engineer Ziani Vaatzes designed and built a war. Thousands died as a consequence of his elaborate plan.
The civil servant Manuo Psellus took the decision that started the war. The very foundations of his world are now threatened.
The ruler Duke Valens brought the war on himself. Now he must decide whether to sacrifice his country to save his people.
They embarked on the war for their own reasons, but as it takes on a life of its own they find they've become components in their own machine. And the machine, it seems, has one purpose: to render evil for evil.
The civil servant Manuo Psellus took the decision that started the war. The very foundations of his world are now threatened.
The ruler Duke Valens brought the war on himself. Now he must decide whether to sacrifice his country to save his people.
They embarked on the war for their own reasons, but as it takes on a life of its own they find they've become components in their own machine. And the machine, it seems, has one purpose: to render evil for evil.
738 pages, Kindle Edition
First published December 7, 2006
157 people are currently reading
1546 people want to read
About the author
K.J. Parker
134 books1,675 followersK.J. Parker is a pseudonym for Tom Holt.
According to the biographical notes in some of Parker's books, Parker has previously worked in law, journalism, and numismatics, and now writes and makes things out of wood and metal. It is also claimed that Parker is married to a solicitor and now lives in southern England. According to an autobiographical note, Parker was raised in rural Vermont, a lifestyle which influenced Parker's work.
According to the biographical notes in some of Parker's books, Parker has previously worked in law, journalism, and numismatics, and now writes and makes things out of wood and metal. It is also claimed that Parker is married to a solicitor and now lives in southern England. According to an autobiographical note, Parker was raised in rural Vermont, a lifestyle which influenced Parker's work.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 145 reviews
November 23, 2023
I've read a ton of Parker, but I've rarely been as deflated and hopeless as I have when finishing this book. Just like our MC (can anyone in this book be called a protagonist anyomore?), we watch the perfectly timed mechanism perform its function, and though we know where this Rube Goldberg machine is going to end up (much more so than in the first book), we can't look away as domino after domino falls and no hero rises up to stop it. It's an exercise in human misery, in the everyday evil of regular people, and how that evil can be ignored when it's useful. A fantastic sequel to a fantastic first book.
March 10, 2014
Evil for Evil continues the story of Ziani Vaatzes, an engineer exiled from his home city for the crime of abomination. He created mechanical devices that varied from the time honored guild specifications. In this volume, Ziani flees to the Vadanis and war follows; however, unlike Orsea, the hapless leader of the Eremians , Duke Valens is made of sterner stuff. He wages a determined - albeit doomed - campaign against the Mezentines.
There are many things to like about this book. There are plots within plots within plots. I like that. I like books where I am kept guessing. In this volume some but not all of the twists are revealed. We learn that the war against Eremia was orchestrated by Guild politics. This revelation is just a tease. There are hints that there is something more. And this something more is one of the rawest and most powerful elemental forces: love. For the sake of a woman's love, men will see kingdom's burn, cities fall, and hundreds of thousands die. I love it. Truly, what can trump love? Nothing.
Duke Valens loves one woman, the Duchess of Eremia. He will do anything to be with her - including murdering her husband and waging war against the world's greatest power. Ziani the Engineer, by contrast, is determined to be reunited with his wife and will do anything to be reunited with her - including teaching the barbarians how to fight the Mezentines.
Unfortunately, I just didn't buy it. All of this is motivated by love, but I just didn't see it. All the action, all the detail, all the plots were great, but I just didn't buy it. K.J. Parker writes about machines and people. In some cases the people are dangerously close to machines. And machines don't love. For a book with a man's love for a woman at the core it felt stale. With love at the core the author needed to deliver passion, and he didn't manage it. That is a tragedy because the writings and story and world were otherwise great.
Three stars. I will finish the series but that is mainly because I am more interested in the resolution of the larger story line than because I feel something for the characters. That is kind of sad.
There are many things to like about this book. There are plots within plots within plots. I like that. I like books where I am kept guessing. In this volume some but not all of the twists are revealed. We learn that the war against Eremia was orchestrated by Guild politics. This revelation is just a tease. There are hints that there is something more. And this something more is one of the rawest and most powerful elemental forces: love. For the sake of a woman's love, men will see kingdom's burn, cities fall, and hundreds of thousands die. I love it. Truly, what can trump love? Nothing.
Duke Valens loves one woman, the Duchess of Eremia. He will do anything to be with her - including murdering her husband and waging war against the world's greatest power. Ziani the Engineer, by contrast, is determined to be reunited with his wife and will do anything to be reunited with her - including teaching the barbarians how to fight the Mezentines.
Unfortunately, I just didn't buy it. All of this is motivated by love, but I just didn't see it. All the action, all the detail, all the plots were great, but I just didn't buy it. K.J. Parker writes about machines and people. In some cases the people are dangerously close to machines. And machines don't love. For a book with a man's love for a woman at the core it felt stale. With love at the core the author needed to deliver passion, and he didn't manage it. That is a tragedy because the writings and story and world were otherwise great.
Three stars. I will finish the series but that is mainly because I am more interested in the resolution of the larger story line than because I feel something for the characters. That is kind of sad.
May 4, 2011
I’m really beginning to hate this trilogy. If this post is excessively long, detailed, and tripartite, consider it a pale reflection of the work itself. Here are my main complaints so far:
1. A character is framed and executed for a crime. The decision-maker really doesn’t want to do it and has previously described his reasons for not believing anything the key witness has to say. However, he states his unqualified belief in the story given to him. This made absolutely no sense. I wouldn’t have done it, and he’s a lot smarter than I am.
2. I’m having trouble believing that one of a dozen desert-dwelling tribes is going to build up a fairly organized society of eight million people who are all nomadic pastoralists. I may be wrong about this, as the Mongol Empire at its peak encompassed some 100 million. That, however, includes everyone the Horde subjugated, and most of those people had agriculture and permanent settlements.
3. There are about four meaningful women in the series so far, and none of them ever speak to each other. Fair enough; it’s military fantasy set in a feudal society, and you don’t have to retcon the development of civilization just to pass the Bechdel test for my enjoyment. What bothers me is that the author never refers to the female characters by name: they’re named only when another character is talking about them. In fact, we never learn the name of one woman except that it starts with an A and it’s unpronounceable.
The narration is third-person limited, spread among one female lead and half a dozen men (in addition to various minor military leaders, who are usually about to be stabbed). When the male leads are up, they’re identified: Miel thought, Ziani walked, Valens smiled. When the woman takes the stage it’s she read, she realized, she sat. I had to refer to Book I to remember what her name was.
I’d like to believe that this is a sophisticated literary device, but the author does the same in The Folding Knife and The Company. Between that and the minutely detailed descriptions of weaponry, warfare, and hunting—not so much the subject matter as the nearly autistic level of focus—I’m having trouble believing these books are written by a woman.
Here’s hoping that Book III at least ties up all the loose ends.
1. A character is framed and executed for a crime. The decision-maker really doesn’t want to do it and has previously described his reasons for not believing anything the key witness has to say. However, he states his unqualified belief in the story given to him. This made absolutely no sense. I wouldn’t have done it, and he’s a lot smarter than I am.
2. I’m having trouble believing that one of a dozen desert-dwelling tribes is going to build up a fairly organized society of eight million people who are all nomadic pastoralists. I may be wrong about this, as the Mongol Empire at its peak encompassed some 100 million. That, however, includes everyone the Horde subjugated, and most of those people had agriculture and permanent settlements.
3. There are about four meaningful women in the series so far, and none of them ever speak to each other. Fair enough; it’s military fantasy set in a feudal society, and you don’t have to retcon the development of civilization just to pass the Bechdel test for my enjoyment. What bothers me is that the author never refers to the female characters by name: they’re named only when another character is talking about them. In fact, we never learn the name of one woman except that it starts with an A and it’s unpronounceable.
The narration is third-person limited, spread among one female lead and half a dozen men (in addition to various minor military leaders, who are usually about to be stabbed). When the male leads are up, they’re identified: Miel thought, Ziani walked, Valens smiled. When the woman takes the stage it’s she read, she realized, she sat. I had to refer to Book I to remember what her name was.
I’d like to believe that this is a sophisticated literary device, but the author does the same in The Folding Knife and The Company. Between that and the minutely detailed descriptions of weaponry, warfare, and hunting—not so much the subject matter as the nearly autistic level of focus—I’m having trouble believing these books are written by a woman.
Here’s hoping that Book III at least ties up all the loose ends.
October 19, 2013
Oh K.J. Parker… No other author has frustrated me so much! Book 2 of the Engineer Trilogy by K.J. Parker picks up right after the events in Book 1. After the revelations seen in Devices and Desires I was eager to see what else was in store for the characters. Unfortunately the second novel in this trilogy is a perfect example of the dreaded “middle book syndrome”. Sadly this seems to happen all too often in fantasy literature. The trilogy formula is almost expected in many ways and while I have absolutely no problem with lengthy series, this second entry felt completely pointless. Now sure there was some character development, and some of the motives that were once unclear are slowly revealed by the end, but for all intents and purposes this book just really didn’t feel necessary.
I won’t go into the plot because unless you’ve read book 1 you would be completely lost. If you made it through all of Devices and Desires, then I suppose you might be interested enough to continue with book 2, but know that a lot of the action doesn’t really happen until the last 150-200 pages. Also, the climax in book 1 was a lot more rewarding than the conclusion we see in book 2, my opinion of course.
I’ve begun to notice a trend with K.J. Parker’s trilogies in that the middle book is almost always the weakest entry. The Scavenger Trilogy had one of my all time favorite endings and is responsible for my appreciation of Parker as an author. The second book was the worst of all three, and the same can be said for The Fencer Trilogy and it looks as if this trend might continue with The Engineer Trilogy. Oddly enough, Parker hasn’t written a trilogy since this one and now writes stand-alone novels, which I think is where Parker’s strengths lay.
This was one hell of a slog and the 680 something pages felt like a serious chore. Seriously at one point, Parker dedicates a good two and a half pages describing someone attempting to thread a needle and stitch something. The ONLY reason I will be continuing is in hopes that Parker will once again pull out an EPIC conclusion as he/she did in The Scavenger Trilogy. If there is one thing I’ve learned while reading K.J. Parker, it’s that you need to be patient. I know it sounds like I’ve done nothing but trash this book, but there is also some sort of curiosity that pulls you along and makes you want to continue. You get the feeling that Parker is keeping a secret from you and you are really curious as to what that secret is. I know something shocking is going to happen at the end of book 3, and for all I know I might look back on book 2 and see how it was necessary for the conclusion of the story. This is probably the least accessible entry written by Parker, and sadly I just can’t recommend it unless you’re a huge fan of the writer. Book 3 next!
I won’t go into the plot because unless you’ve read book 1 you would be completely lost. If you made it through all of Devices and Desires, then I suppose you might be interested enough to continue with book 2, but know that a lot of the action doesn’t really happen until the last 150-200 pages. Also, the climax in book 1 was a lot more rewarding than the conclusion we see in book 2, my opinion of course.
I’ve begun to notice a trend with K.J. Parker’s trilogies in that the middle book is almost always the weakest entry. The Scavenger Trilogy had one of my all time favorite endings and is responsible for my appreciation of Parker as an author. The second book was the worst of all three, and the same can be said for The Fencer Trilogy and it looks as if this trend might continue with The Engineer Trilogy. Oddly enough, Parker hasn’t written a trilogy since this one and now writes stand-alone novels, which I think is where Parker’s strengths lay.
This was one hell of a slog and the 680 something pages felt like a serious chore. Seriously at one point, Parker dedicates a good two and a half pages describing someone attempting to thread a needle and stitch something. The ONLY reason I will be continuing is in hopes that Parker will once again pull out an EPIC conclusion as he/she did in The Scavenger Trilogy. If there is one thing I’ve learned while reading K.J. Parker, it’s that you need to be patient. I know it sounds like I’ve done nothing but trash this book, but there is also some sort of curiosity that pulls you along and makes you want to continue. You get the feeling that Parker is keeping a secret from you and you are really curious as to what that secret is. I know something shocking is going to happen at the end of book 3, and for all I know I might look back on book 2 and see how it was necessary for the conclusion of the story. This is probably the least accessible entry written by Parker, and sadly I just can’t recommend it unless you’re a huge fan of the writer. Book 3 next!
April 7, 2021
Amazing. I’m a fan of this author’s unique style but I think this volume has cemented him in my mind as one of the great Fantasy authors. Certainly fits my tastes exactly.
The story continues from volume 1, building on the exiled Engineer Vaatzes, torn away from his family, the only people he cares for. He’s now in full sociopath mode here, manipulating everything and everyone to get his revenge. Death and destruction resulting from love. There’s a well meaning but overwhelmingly incompetent Duke, and another competent, ruthless Duke, involved in his own love dilemma, caught up in the web of manipulation. A new engineer appears on the scene, brilliant but found to be a murderer and rapist, and disliked by all who meet him. Shouldn’t he be tried and executed? But he saves a refugee column from extermination - should he now be lauded?!
So many twists, so many intriguing characters almost always flawed. There are battles and skirmishes in this prolonged war though, in the Parker manner, these are not usually admirable forums for courage but confused messy incidents where luck is critical to survival. And a regular GRRM style culling of characters you thought were in the story for the long term...
Also the characteristic meanderings down side alleys. A nobleman, disillusioned with his role in the war, ready to roll over and accept death, loses himself by looking at a wheelwright fixing a broken spoke on a wheel - which is accurately described in detail over a couple of pages! A gruesome account of how a reluctant officer has to arrange the execution of prisoners after a battle, with inadequate resources to do so. How to cast and then hand forge steel plates to armour wagons for refugees. I could go on about the detailed excursions from the main plot.
This detailed intricate style will not be to everyone’s taste but it is mine. Plenty of meat to the plot, lots of intrigue, treachery, fascinating characters and normally told in detail at a slow paced rate. Oh, and great dialogue.
Volume #1 was maybe 4.5. This one is 5* with gold ribbon embellishment.
A brief rest then volume 3...
The story continues from volume 1, building on the exiled Engineer Vaatzes, torn away from his family, the only people he cares for. He’s now in full sociopath mode here, manipulating everything and everyone to get his revenge. Death and destruction resulting from love. There’s a well meaning but overwhelmingly incompetent Duke, and another competent, ruthless Duke, involved in his own love dilemma, caught up in the web of manipulation. A new engineer appears on the scene, brilliant but found to be a murderer and rapist, and disliked by all who meet him. Shouldn’t he be tried and executed? But he saves a refugee column from extermination - should he now be lauded?!
So many twists, so many intriguing characters almost always flawed. There are battles and skirmishes in this prolonged war though, in the Parker manner, these are not usually admirable forums for courage but confused messy incidents where luck is critical to survival. And a regular GRRM style culling of characters you thought were in the story for the long term...
Also the characteristic meanderings down side alleys. A nobleman, disillusioned with his role in the war, ready to roll over and accept death, loses himself by looking at a wheelwright fixing a broken spoke on a wheel - which is accurately described in detail over a couple of pages! A gruesome account of how a reluctant officer has to arrange the execution of prisoners after a battle, with inadequate resources to do so. How to cast and then hand forge steel plates to armour wagons for refugees. I could go on about the detailed excursions from the main plot.
This detailed intricate style will not be to everyone’s taste but it is mine. Plenty of meat to the plot, lots of intrigue, treachery, fascinating characters and normally told in detail at a slow paced rate. Oh, and great dialogue.
Volume #1 was maybe 4.5. This one is 5* with gold ribbon embellishment.
A brief rest then volume 3...
May 12, 2020
The second doorstop in the trilogy picks up right where the first left off. The mountain barbarians have lost one fortress (due to the engineer's treachery) after having slaughtered most of the guilds mercenary army. The Duke's timely rescue of the duchess and the other Duke serves as an act of war against the Guilds, and more war is declared. The POV shifts from the barbarians to the political machinations going on in the guilds.
This is a pretty unique fantasy series, as there is no magic involved, and that it is also a love story, albeit a very strange one. We learn that the engineer's love for his wife is enough to plot the downfall of empires if needed to get her back. The odd love affair (if you can call writing letters to one another that) between the duchess and the Duke boils slowly, as her husband is one of the refugees in the Duke's kingdom. The engineer has a plot for that as well, if it will help his mission.
I said strange love story, as basically, there are few characters one has any sympathy for; all seem very self-centered and callous. Further, although the engineer is said to love his wife, it is pretty clear she does not love him, and may have actually induced his demise by pointing out to authorities how he violated specifications on the doll he built for his child. What you have is a mess of plotting and treachery that goes very deep, along with a very high body count. 3.5 stars.
This is a pretty unique fantasy series, as there is no magic involved, and that it is also a love story, albeit a very strange one. We learn that the engineer's love for his wife is enough to plot the downfall of empires if needed to get her back. The odd love affair (if you can call writing letters to one another that) between the duchess and the Duke boils slowly, as her husband is one of the refugees in the Duke's kingdom. The engineer has a plot for that as well, if it will help his mission.
I said strange love story, as basically, there are few characters one has any sympathy for; all seem very self-centered and callous. Further, although the engineer is said to love his wife, it is pretty clear she does not love him, and may have actually induced his demise by pointing out to authorities how he violated specifications on the doll he built for his child. What you have is a mess of plotting and treachery that goes very deep, along with a very high body count. 3.5 stars.
July 27, 2017
So in the first volume (Devices and Desires), the engineer Ziani Vaatzes ran off from his home city to the Duchy of Eremia after being sentenced to death for being a little too good at his job. His only desire was to return home and make sure his wife and daughter were being looked after. By the end of the first book, the Eremian nation had been pretty much wiped out and Vaatzes (in company with the Duke and the Duke's wife and a few other survivors) had taken refuge in the neighboring Vadani Duchy. What could possibly go wrong?
Spoiler alert: Rather a lot.
Yes, this is a middle book of a trilogy. But it's still a joy to read, to see the way the gears mesh (or not) and wheels turn (or not) in Vaatzes' cunningly-engineered design. And naturally there are other would-be craftsmen with their own intentions for his construct ...
Spoiler alert: Rather a lot.
Yes, this is a middle book of a trilogy. But it's still a joy to read, to see the way the gears mesh (or not) and wheels turn (or not) in Vaatzes' cunningly-engineered design. And naturally there are other would-be craftsmen with their own intentions for his construct ...
May 30, 2020
Many people have claimed this book suffers from the dreaded SBS. Many of the reviews are average to below average. I suppose I am not Many people. Go figure....
April 27, 2009
Just brilliant; one of the best novels I've read recently and the best in the series; an A+++ kind of book with the middle part of the machinations of Ziani, tribulations of the triangle Valens/Veatriz/Orsea, Lucas Pselus and his phantom job, Miel Ducas and his path, as well as the woman who started it all Ariessa and the rest of the surviving heroes
September 17, 2012
Continuing in the series from Devices and Desires, the protagonist becomes more and more unlikable, while the story gets better and better. I have never been very fond of fantasy books, and this book is more of an alternate reality than fantasy, but it and its's predecessor are both very good. The character Duredja is fantastic. Creepy, and loathsome, and yet understandable to a point.
July 22, 2022
“The way to a man’s heart … is proverbially through his stomach, but if you want to get into his brain, I recommend the eye socket.”
Essentially a repeat of the first book with a few new characters. Many insights into what motivates people. Hard to find anyone to like among this cast of self-absorbed nobles and engineers.
'A lie, he’d learned long ago, is often the mirror image of the truth; by examining it carefully, you can reconstruct the fact that lie was designed to conceal.'
Modern sensibilities proliferate. Telegraphs most of his cliffhanger climaxes. The usual held breaths of beginner fiction. Internal illogic abounds: “We can cross the desert because there’s a way. A string of oases, each of them no more than two days on from the last one.” The same person says, “You can cross the desert in three days.”
Their word for trade literally means ‘to steal by purchase.’
Verisimilitude right out the window. Parker goes to great lengths to engineer intricate plots and counterplots but forgets the simple logistics of the situations he creates. One example: a fleeing caravan of “carts” sets up and operates a foundry complete with bellows and anvils in the middle of nowhere in an afternoon. “No trees sturdy enough to serve as makeshift gallows,” but enough to melt iron. “We can cross the desert because there’s a way. A string of oases, each of them no more than two days on from the last one.” Later the same person says, “You can cross the desert in three days.”
“Luck’s a bit like splitting a log. You’re much more likely to succeed if you read the grain and look for flaw-lines.”
Essentially a repeat of the first book with a few new characters. Many insights into what motivates people. Hard to find anyone to like among this cast of self-absorbed nobles and engineers.
'A lie, he’d learned long ago, is often the mirror image of the truth; by examining it carefully, you can reconstruct the fact that lie was designed to conceal.'
Modern sensibilities proliferate. Telegraphs most of his cliffhanger climaxes. The usual held breaths of beginner fiction. Internal illogic abounds: “We can cross the desert because there’s a way. A string of oases, each of them no more than two days on from the last one.” The same person says, “You can cross the desert in three days.”
Their word for trade literally means ‘to steal by purchase.’
Verisimilitude right out the window. Parker goes to great lengths to engineer intricate plots and counterplots but forgets the simple logistics of the situations he creates. One example: a fleeing caravan of “carts” sets up and operates a foundry complete with bellows and anvils in the middle of nowhere in an afternoon. “No trees sturdy enough to serve as makeshift gallows,” but enough to melt iron. “We can cross the desert because there’s a way. A string of oases, each of them no more than two days on from the last one.” Later the same person says, “You can cross the desert in three days.”
“Luck’s a bit like splitting a log. You’re much more likely to succeed if you read the grain and look for flaw-lines.”
January 15, 2024
This book made me miserable. I don't think I ever hated a main character as much as I hated Ziani. But while reading these bad events happening to these characters one after another, I just couldn't help but appreciate what Parker did. I don't think anyone other than Parker could have made me read this book.
October 9, 2019
Some people seem to dislike this book intensely. I get it. It takes a while to get from A to B, and from B to C. I'm not even sure that it got to C, to be honest. So if you like a nice, tight, spare novel, this isn't for you. It's a bit Byzantine, a bit sprawling. It spends pages focused on a bureaucrat seated in his office thinking about a problem, for example.
What does it have? For starters, it's got a shout-out to Herodotus on the Persians. This isn't the first time I've seen this little gem worked into historical fiction (or in this case, historically-grounded fantasy-ish), but I still got goosebumps. Here's K.J. Parker:
"Another thing he’d heard about these people; they respected truth above all things. The perfect education, they said with pride, consisted of horsemanship, archery and telling the truth."
And Herodotus:
"From the age of five to the age of twenty, they teach their sons just three things: to ride horses, to shoot the bow, and to speak the truth."
The book also has a psychopath active at the margins -- I'm guessing he'll be an important figure, but for now the margins -- and I really enjoyed this bit of philosophizing by another character, speaking about our psychopath:
"What I mean is, it’s possible for someone to do the sort of things he’s done and still regard himself as a more or less normal human being; he thinks to himself, I’ve done something wrong, but it’s fine, I can put it right. If there really was such a thing as evil, he couldn’t think like that. No, it’s not that easy — some people are monsters, they’re evil through and through; you tell yourself that so you can make sense of the world. It’s like believing in a religion, a god and a devil, all good on one side, all bad on the other. But that’s not how it is. Instead, you’ve got people who are capable of doing things that you can’t even bear to think about; for bloody certain you can’t ever forgive them. But they can still feel guilt and shame, they can still fall in love, try and do the right thing, appreciate what the right thing is — and then they cheerfully go and do the next unbelievably bad thing, and it all goes round again. So you tell yourself, it’s because they’re not right in the head, it’s an illness, they aren’t in control of what they do. That’s another easy way round it, and of course it isn’t true. And then you get people like me; and people like you, as well. It should be up to us to kill men like him on sight, like wolves, but we don’t. We talk ourselves into believing that it’d be wrong, which is just that same old belief again, an excuse for not facing something we can’t understand."
I was reminded of The Kindly Ones by Johnathan Littell, and I'm sure there are any number of other examples out there. Evil -- what is it, and what does it look like from the point of view of the evildoer?
Also, logistics, early renaissance technology, and the idea that love can be a force for (really, really) bad as well as for good.
What does it have? For starters, it's got a shout-out to Herodotus on the Persians. This isn't the first time I've seen this little gem worked into historical fiction (or in this case, historically-grounded fantasy-ish), but I still got goosebumps. Here's K.J. Parker:
"Another thing he’d heard about these people; they respected truth above all things. The perfect education, they said with pride, consisted of horsemanship, archery and telling the truth."
And Herodotus:
"From the age of five to the age of twenty, they teach their sons just three things: to ride horses, to shoot the bow, and to speak the truth."
The book also has a psychopath active at the margins -- I'm guessing he'll be an important figure, but for now the margins -- and I really enjoyed this bit of philosophizing by another character, speaking about our psychopath:
"What I mean is, it’s possible for someone to do the sort of things he’s done and still regard himself as a more or less normal human being; he thinks to himself, I’ve done something wrong, but it’s fine, I can put it right. If there really was such a thing as evil, he couldn’t think like that. No, it’s not that easy — some people are monsters, they’re evil through and through; you tell yourself that so you can make sense of the world. It’s like believing in a religion, a god and a devil, all good on one side, all bad on the other. But that’s not how it is. Instead, you’ve got people who are capable of doing things that you can’t even bear to think about; for bloody certain you can’t ever forgive them. But they can still feel guilt and shame, they can still fall in love, try and do the right thing, appreciate what the right thing is — and then they cheerfully go and do the next unbelievably bad thing, and it all goes round again. So you tell yourself, it’s because they’re not right in the head, it’s an illness, they aren’t in control of what they do. That’s another easy way round it, and of course it isn’t true. And then you get people like me; and people like you, as well. It should be up to us to kill men like him on sight, like wolves, but we don’t. We talk ourselves into believing that it’d be wrong, which is just that same old belief again, an excuse for not facing something we can’t understand."
I was reminded of The Kindly Ones by Johnathan Littell, and I'm sure there are any number of other examples out there. Evil -- what is it, and what does it look like from the point of view of the evildoer?
Also, logistics, early renaissance technology, and the idea that love can be a force for (really, really) bad as well as for good.
September 15, 2019
This one really was a lot better than the first one. I haven't read a lot of KJ Parker (only The Folding Knife and 16 Ways to Defend a Walled City) but what I really liked about those was the sense of humour and dry wit, which I felt were almost completely absent in Devices and Desires.
They aren't back in Evil for Evil, but whereas Devices and Desires read like it was just Ziani Vaatzes nefariously stringing everyone along with his Machiavellian scheming, this one throws a wrench into his plans and finally gives him some real opposition. As a result, it reads a lot better.
I wasn't really too excited to start Evil for Evil after Devices and Desires and I doubt I would have continued with the series if I had not bought the whole trilogy at once (something I rarely do) but I can't wait to see how things end in the third one. The die has been cast!
They aren't back in Evil for Evil, but whereas Devices and Desires read like it was just Ziani Vaatzes nefariously stringing everyone along with his Machiavellian scheming, this one throws a wrench into his plans and finally gives him some real opposition. As a result, it reads a lot better.
I wasn't really too excited to start Evil for Evil after Devices and Desires and I doubt I would have continued with the series if I had not bought the whole trilogy at once (something I rarely do) but I can't wait to see how things end in the third one. The die has been cast!
July 15, 2020
Parker's stories always start out feeling loose, like he sat down with a thread of an idea and just started writing. The further you get into his stories, though, the more you realize how well plotted they are, and that there's no way he could have written these stories without knowing from the start how they would play out. Evil for Evil is a continuation of the story that began with Devices and Desires, and together, they bear out a plot that doesn't exactly keep you guessing, because you never know that you should have been guessing until Parker reveals how all of his threads weave together.
I really liked the Scavenger trilogy, but if Parker keeps this story going the way he has in the first two books, I may have a new favorite Parker trilogy.
I really liked the Scavenger trilogy, but if Parker keeps this story going the way he has in the first two books, I may have a new favorite Parker trilogy.
January 9, 2010
Book #2 in a trilogy. More of the same as first book. One of those types of fantasy novels that you really want to finish because you want to see how it all turns out, but the actual reading is a bid tedious. The author is trying to do more than he really pulls off well in terms of character development, but it stays moderately interesting because its often unpredictable.
April 28, 2020
It took me over a month to finish this book, but it's not the author's fault. Evil for Evil simply has a lot going on with it that made it increasingly difficult to keep up with as the real world suffers from a global pandemic and my free time and free attention evaporated.
In a lot of ways, this book is a repeat of the last: The engineer Ziani Vaatzes continues to do what he did in the last book (which has become even more depressing). However, new characters and situations continue to wind up the mechanism of the shape of this story, as some things I suspected in the first book finally came into play, and where the story goes from here is far more fraught.
Also, Parker hates love.
In a lot of ways, this book is a repeat of the last: The engineer Ziani Vaatzes continues to do what he did in the last book (which has become even more depressing). However, new characters and situations continue to wind up the mechanism of the shape of this story, as some things I suspected in the first book finally came into play, and where the story goes from here is far more fraught.
Also, Parker hates love.
September 14, 2024
Rinse and repeat of book 1, largely. Lots of minutia, some good character interactions. I should have skipped this and went directly to book 3, but let me check out the reviews on that one before I start it.
July 7, 2015
For total discretion, this is my first KJ Parker trilogy and will likely be my last. Don't take that to heart though. I know people do like the writing style. I just find these books are not for me. Anyway......
Take the first book (Devices and Desire by KJ Parker) rinse with dirty water and repeat. Exactly the same as the first, but longer and nothing happens. At least in the first book we have a war. In the second book, we have the artful (and unsuccessful) evading. The metaphors were pages long, the chapters pointless and the character development either minimal or zero to tragic in 2 pages (I would say 1 paragraph but with the metaphors, it takes about 2 to 5 pages to get anywhere). I swear there is 20-30 pages where literally all a woman does is go to the Guildhall, sits there, is then lead out a back passageway and leaves. Literally nothing important is said or done. It's annoying to her and it's really annoying for the rest of us. This book could have easily been 300 pages instead of neigh 700. The real tragedy is Parker is trying to make the reader figure out the methods to everyone's madness while making astute observations about love, duty, honor and doing the right thing. Parker gets so stuck in his own literary style that making character development or even plot development is like slogging through mental mud. It takes forever and is exhausting. There are some good qualities and despite of the writing, I still find myself connecting to characters and even chuckling at some of his observations. I think my favorite part is very subtle commentary about society and who are the real savages, ect. In the end, I think I got through this book just to say that I could. Now I still have the third book to finish. I have come too far. I must continue. It helps that the third book is only 300 pages...
Bottom line, if you are looking for a fantasy epic, pick something else. If you love political drama adventure mixed with textbook-esqe writing style, love triangles that don't make sense, cultures that are never explained in a fantasy land that doesn't have a map and a should-not-be-so-hard story with SUPER extended metaphors, pick up the first book and good luck. If you get anything out of this, it will be patience.
****HOWEVER I have started the third book and I am finding that I am interested in what happens. I have high hopes for this one.*****
Take the first book (Devices and Desire by KJ Parker) rinse with dirty water and repeat. Exactly the same as the first, but longer and nothing happens. At least in the first book we have a war. In the second book, we have the artful (and unsuccessful) evading. The metaphors were pages long, the chapters pointless and the character development either minimal or zero to tragic in 2 pages (I would say 1 paragraph but with the metaphors, it takes about 2 to 5 pages to get anywhere). I swear there is 20-30 pages where literally all a woman does is go to the Guildhall, sits there, is then lead out a back passageway and leaves. Literally nothing important is said or done. It's annoying to her and it's really annoying for the rest of us. This book could have easily been 300 pages instead of neigh 700. The real tragedy is Parker is trying to make the reader figure out the methods to everyone's madness while making astute observations about love, duty, honor and doing the right thing. Parker gets so stuck in his own literary style that making character development or even plot development is like slogging through mental mud. It takes forever and is exhausting. There are some good qualities and despite of the writing, I still find myself connecting to characters and even chuckling at some of his observations. I think my favorite part is very subtle commentary about society and who are the real savages, ect. In the end, I think I got through this book just to say that I could. Now I still have the third book to finish. I have come too far. I must continue. It helps that the third book is only 300 pages...
Bottom line, if you are looking for a fantasy epic, pick something else. If you love political drama adventure mixed with textbook-esqe writing style, love triangles that don't make sense, cultures that are never explained in a fantasy land that doesn't have a map and a should-not-be-so-hard story with SUPER extended metaphors, pick up the first book and good luck. If you get anything out of this, it will be patience.
****HOWEVER I have started the third book and I am finding that I am interested in what happens. I have high hopes for this one.*****
March 24, 2016
I'm grading this "Incomplete" until I finish the series.
I took a break in the middle of reading, and spent some time thinking about how I'd want the conflicts resolved. The protagonist is sympathetic, but evil. He's an unopposable force, in his mild-mannered way, but you can't wish him success. Yet his assistant, who is presently the main obstacle visible in his path, is a devil.
I know how stories work, and I should probably expect this series, like many, to climax with the protagonist choosing to sacrifice his objectives in the service of justice. But it would be so much better to be surprised.
I took a break in the middle of reading, and spent some time thinking about how I'd want the conflicts resolved. The protagonist is sympathetic, but evil. He's an unopposable force, in his mild-mannered way, but you can't wish him success. Yet his assistant, who is presently the main obstacle visible in his path, is a devil.
I know how stories work, and I should probably expect this series, like many, to climax with the protagonist choosing to sacrifice his objectives in the service of justice. But it would be so much better to be surprised.
January 7, 2008
The twists and turns and revelations built off the previous book, Devices and Desires, well and made for an even more entertaining read, but by the end I wanted to let Parker know, okay, I get it, people are bastards and love is the root of the greatest evil. Honestly, would it be so wrong if a hint of decency didn't produce horrible results?
The intricacy and mechanism of the plot kept me engaged enough to rush through the 600 plus pages in a weekend, though I'll need to read something with a brighter take on humanity and human affection when I finish this series.
The intricacy and mechanism of the plot kept me engaged enough to rush through the 600 plus pages in a weekend, though I'll need to read something with a brighter take on humanity and human affection when I finish this series.
December 6, 2014
The sequel to Devices and Desires. This book loses any momentum that Parker was able to drum up in the first book. The plot takes a couple strange turns away from the main storyline, and the introduction of Daurenja just creates a darker, muddier mess the reader has to dig through.
The writing style still fit the setting and characters, but the descriptive detail started to drag. I maintained enough interest in the plot (I always need to know how it ends!) to push through, but it was less enjoyable than I hoped.
The writing style still fit the setting and characters, but the descriptive detail started to drag. I maintained enough interest in the plot (I always need to know how it ends!) to push through, but it was less enjoyable than I hoped.
June 12, 2012
I tried. I really did. I couldn't finish this one. There's more stuff about how people are morons for love, which is too cynical of a worldview for me. Also characters I liked before become incompetent and useless, or utterly evil. And the treatment of women does not improve... at least not for the first 73 percent of the book, which was as far as I got. Sorry, KJ Parker. I'm sure you have your fans. I'm just not one.
January 11, 2015
Parker seems to be fascinated by sociopaths and psychopaths which several of the characters are. none are terribly likeable.
Given the structure of the first two books, I'm fairly confident there will be some master manipulator (not the protagonist) with a grand plan, moving pawns on the chess board as the 'surprising' conclusion to the third. I'm not sure it's going to be worth slogging through the third to find out.
Given the structure of the first two books, I'm fairly confident there will be some master manipulator (not the protagonist) with a grand plan, moving pawns on the chess board as the 'surprising' conclusion to the third. I'm not sure it's going to be worth slogging through the third to find out.
May 12, 2009
This book is dense as hell. I ended up hating most of the characters by the end of it, although action does begin to pick up by the time they hit the desert. However, I'm sick of the love triangle that cannot be and everyone complaining about how they're totally fucked and only human. It's getting a little old.
Hopefully the next one will be better.
Hopefully the next one will be better.
September 6, 2013
This rating needs at least a little explanation; I dropped this trilogy in spite of loving the writing, essentially because the only surviving characters by the end of this book were people who horrified me. The story is an interesting thought experiment in the limits of love as an agent of destruction. Maybe I'll give it another chance someday.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
September 10, 2014
Ugh, second book syndrome strikes again. The last third of this book was a struggle to get through. The characters are fading into caricatures and Vaatzes is getting by on luck more than skill and planning. I suppose part of Parker's plan is to turn characters into the machines they rely on so much but this doesn't make for compelling reading. 1300 pages into this trilogy, 400 more to go.
July 26, 2015
The Engineer Trilogy are really not my favourite books of Parker's - I'm used to coming to like his rather awful characters despite myself over the course of reading one of his novels, but everyone in Evil For Evil is just irredeemably dreadful and it makes getting through this long novel with Parker's typical tedious infodumps a bit of a slog.
August 9, 2016
Still a good book on the merits of the series, but not much of a standalone story. I found myself wanting to skip pretty much any part not narrated from Ziani or Valens point of view, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to be taking a break before I try reading the escapement.
These aren't bad books, but I'm not sure I'm enjoying them the way I did at first in book #1.
These aren't bad books, but I'm not sure I'm enjoying them the way I did at first in book #1.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
March 30, 2012
I like the first book well enough, but this one never did grab my interest. I started to develop a dislike for all the characters, and I realized I don't want to spend time with them. Perhaps I will try it again later, because I wanted to like this trilogy.
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