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Blood of Tyrants
PRESIDENTIAL SERIES
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2. BLOOD OF TYRANTS ~ August 19th ~ August 25th ~~ CHAPTERS 4 - 6 ~ (32 - 47) No-Spoilers
Chapter Overviews and SummariesChapter Four: The Phoenix
Washington arrived in Philadelphia as a Virginia delegate at a new constitutional convention. The delegation was fractured between small states and large states, a fear of centralized power (monarch), and democracy. In fact, Rhode Island felt the convention was unconstitutional.
The convention was held in privacy in Independence Hall. It took two weeks to reach a quorum, but those did come were the nation's elite. This also meant there were a number of egos that were in possible conflict.
Chapter Five: Wield the Sword
Washington was unanimously elected as the convention president. He was not a strong public speaker, but he was well respected. Washington was like a judge throughout the proceedings as delegates realized that the Articles would have to be abandoned and a new constitution written.
Regarding the command powers, delegates were not looking at King George III as a model, but George Washington. During the Revolutionary War, one person had the authority and a president would have the same command authority.
Chapter Six: Supreme Law of the Land
In the U.S. Constitution, the power of commander-in-chief is not enumerated. However, Washington experienced a similar situation as commander-in-chief of the Continental Army. The constitution needed a strong commander, but used power virtuously. This power is open to abuse, but delegates felt the president can protect the nation during war like Washington did before.
With the help of Washington, the constitution was ratified and the commander-in-chief clause went unchanged.
One thing to keep in mind to give us some context is that most states in their own constitutions created a much stronger legislature than governor leading up to the convention. It is from the results of living under a monarchy. I think New York was one of the few exceptions.I think this makes Washington's position more impressive.
How did you react to reading about GW's immense support by the citizens when he arrived for the convention? If you were a member of the delegation, how would you feel, especially if you were a member of a small state?
Very interesting chapters. I think my favorite moment was the prank that Alexander Hamilton played on an unsuspecting representative to slap Washington on the back and the reaction that followed. The theme that appears here is that he maybe is not not a "man of the people" but that he was likely exactly what the fractious young nation needed to bring them together.On a side note, my mental image of the younger Washington will always be that of actor David Morse, who portrayed him in the excellent John Adams mini-series. He seemed to capture this larger than life aura that Washington had including a little of the aloofness too.
Hi David . . . That's the image that keeps going through my thoughts as I read as well.
Bryan wrote: "How did you react to reading about GW's immense support by the citizens when he arrived for the convention? If you were a member of the delegation, how would you feel, especially if you were a mem..."I am curious, though, as to who organized the 'ticker tape' parade for him. The fans had to know when he was coming and where he'd be, no easy task before Twitter.
David wrote: "Very interesting chapters. I think my favorite moment was the prank that Alexander Hamilton played on an unsuspecting representative to slap Washington on the back and the reaction that followed. ..."David, you bring up a very interesting point: GW not "being a man of the people." It seems he could be a "man for the people." This brings up this great tension when building the presidency. How do you create a president with some democratic character, while being afraid of what that power could do?
Doreen wrote: "Again, I was impressed by the way Beirne can create a scene....the descriptions of the women's bedgowns, men in dark breeches and tricorne hats....all cheering and applauding GW. There were a lot ..."Thanks Doreen, you really see that this convention was not a "slam dunk." A very hard thing they had to do.
Are there any other primary sources which give an insight as to how the other delegates felt towards GW during the convention? E.G., Madison, Franklin, Hamilton...?
Doreen wrote: "Are there any other primary sources which give an insight as to how the other delegates felt towards GW during the convention? E.G., Madison, Franklin, Hamilton...?"Doreen, check out the bibliography, it shows some primary sources that might shed some light on your question:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
It is a good question to ask Logan.
G wrote: "I am curious, though, as to who organized the 'ticker tape' parade for him. The fans had to know when he was coming and where he'd be, no easy task before Twitter. ..."Yeah, I'm not sure if it was planned or it just happened. Maybe the city had scouts who ran ahead to tell everyone GW was coming.
Bryan wrote: "G wrote: "I am curious, though, as to who organized the 'ticker tape' parade for him. The fans had to know when he was coming and where he'd be, no easy task before Twitter. ..."Yeah, I'm not sur..."
You are probably right. On page 34, Beirne says of GW 'The obsessively punctual celebrity...' Which certainly indicates people would have had a rough idea as to when he would show up.
I am having a minor issue with this chapter, largely because when Beirne says on page 36, that delegates '...we're keenly aware that many Americans opposed the convention...' he doesn't give an introductory reason as to why. Given that the hero, Washington, supported it, one would think this wasn't a real concern.
I guess not, G. There was a real complacency and even fear of changing the Articles. Would the revamped Articles erode American liberty?! Then actually scrapping it and write a new constitution?! Whoa.But I think you make a good point that GW's investment might have alleviated some concerns, enough to move forward.
Doreen wrote: "Again, I was impressed by the way Beirne can create a scene....the descriptions of the women's bedgowns, men in dark breeches and tricorne hats....all cheering and applauding GW. There were a lot ..."That was actually something I was wondering. Rhode Island refused to attend, what did that mean for their future prospects? How long was it until they jumped on board?
It's always more apparent how big a challenge it was to wrangle in a people who had shown that they didn't really like to be wrangled.
Some good questions to ask Logan, Todd. Rhode Island never sent a representative, and I think the last to ratify, too. But it did and I wonder how much pressure was applied to make that happen.
Bryan wrote: "How did you react to reading about GW's immense support by the citizens when he arrived for the convention? If you were a member of the delegation, how would you feel, especially if you were a mem..."I had the impression that GW stayed calm and dignified amid the fanfare of his arrival. I'm sure he was appreciative, but after reading about his demeanor during Hamilton's prank, I would think he was not the kind of person that played up his "celebrity status".
Like Doreen said, there were likely a lot of egos attending. Beirne states on page 37 that 60% of the delegates were educated men. I would expect some of these men were frustrated with all of the hullabaloo over Washington because of their egos. I would think that the other 40% were likely well thought of farmers or gentlemen from the smaller states and would maybe be in awe of Washington. Yet it seems that everyone seemed to feel GW was the man to lead the nation with little/no disagreement, and it doesn't appear that Washington even tried to refuse being in charge. However, were the ones that had the egos maybe the ones that didn't show?
I also wonder how drunk/hungover these men were during the whole proceedings. An average of three bottles (plus shots) per person in one night? Surely that was some watered down booze.
And higher tolerance because few would drink the water, lol.
Bryan wrote: "How did you react to reading about GW's immense support by the citizens when he arrived for the convention? If you were a member of the delegation, how would you feel, especially if you were a mem..."
I've never considered Washington to be an attractive man, so the fact that some of the women were yelling for him was pretty surprising to me. Then again, he was a war hero, so I do suppose that might have had something to do with it.
The descriptions given of the other delegates was quite interesting to read, and I do particularly like Hamilton's prank; it's difficult to see such characteristics like this in history books and/or typical biographies. I also wonder if Washington kept up an aloof attitude, perhaps, because he disliked being in the public eye with these men. It stated how he was talkative during informal events, but when he was in a meeting, he wasn't very playful at all.
Interesting chapters, and I'm looking forward to the next ones!
I've never considered Washington to be an attractive man, so the fact that some of the women were yelling for him was pretty surprising to me. Then again, he was a war hero, so I do suppose that might have had something to do with it.
The descriptions given of the other delegates was quite interesting to read, and I do particularly like Hamilton's prank; it's difficult to see such characteristics like this in history books and/or typical biographies. I also wonder if Washington kept up an aloof attitude, perhaps, because he disliked being in the public eye with these men. It stated how he was talkative during informal events, but when he was in a meeting, he wasn't very playful at all.
Interesting chapters, and I'm looking forward to the next ones!
It was a good, well bad, prank by Hamilton. Poor guy. GW seemed to be all business, especially presiding over the convention.
Alexander Hamilton
Given his war hero status I was not surprised GW received such a warm and hearty welcome. Seems as if GW was well received by all, safe to say he had no real enemies with the exception of the British and King Geo III. I'm sure GW was envied by many but admiration of his person seems to reign supreme.
If I were a member of the delegation as a member of a small state I would feel esteemed to be in the presence of GW and have confidence an agreement with strong baring would be drawn with GW leading the helm. My country and preserving it's integrity would be my top concern, who better leading the pack than GW, he garners respect and what he solicits people seem to buy. I would be pleased entirely.
If I were a member of the delegation as a member of a small state I would feel esteemed to be in the presence of GW and have confidence an agreement with strong baring would be drawn with GW leading the helm. My country and preserving it's integrity would be my top concern, who better leading the pack than GW, he garners respect and what he solicits people seem to buy. I would be pleased entirely.
Thanks, Mal. Until this book, I never fully appreciated how GW was the role model for a commander-in-chief.
Todd wrote: "Doreen wrote: "Again, I was impressed by the way Beirne can create a scene....the descriptions of the women's bedgowns, men in dark breeches and tricorne hats....all cheering and applauding GW. Th..."Beirne doesn't talk about why Rhode Island didn't send a representative, but I thought it had something to do with the fact that they had managed their war debts more effectively than the other states and thus they were worried about the dissipation of state power that would have taken place with the ratification of the Constitution. But as Beirne profiles the President of the Constitutional Congress, Washington was cognizant of the rules of order in place in Philadelphia and was careful to preside over a Congress that was following established rules.
Doreen wrote: "Are there any other primary sources which give an insight as to how the other delegates felt towards GW during the convention? E.G., Madison, Franklin, Hamilton...?"Hi Doreen,
They all held him in very high esteem and their writings reflect that. Definitely check out the bibliography - you will see that mostly talk about politics and Washington is not mentioned too often since he was quiet during the debates but there are some off handed references that indicate how they felt about him. Almost all of those reference paint a picture of a man who was beyond reproach (unapproachable AND unreproachable!). The story about Hamilton's dare is very telling.
Thank you for your kind words, I am very happy you are enjoying the book.
Teri wrote: "Bryan wrote: "How did you react to reading about GW's immense support by the citizens when he arrived for the convention? If you were a member of the delegation, how would you feel, especially if ..."haha, yes, as Bryan said - they had very high tolerances. They drank very often since it was cleaner than the water so their bodies were accustomed to it. There is little evidence of bad hangovers at the convention.
Many men thought they were smarter than Washington but it was seen as unpatriotic to disparage him in any way - so they kept their mouths shut. They were smart enough to know not to get caught speaking poorly of the great man. And even if they believed they were more educated (Washington actually had a chip on his shoulder due to his dearth of formal education), they still respected his moral leadership.
People often think that Jefferson/Madison/Hamilton were the brains rather than Washington. I disagree with that belief - Washington was a complete political genius. Just wait and see how he handles his rise to power in later chapters!
I was always aware that Thomas Jefferson attracted a crowd and made quite and appearance, but I now see the same is true for Washington.
I've been thinking about the commander and chief as well and how it applies differently today. I think it's important to remember that the American people an those at the convention were wary of the concept of the standing army. I think part of Washington's virtue as seen by the American people of the time was wrapped up with the celebration of the citizen soldier. By that I mean the theory that the American soldier was a better fighting man than his British counterpart because he was volunteering as an exercise of freedom.Much different from the modern example of the 100% volunteer force. It seems to me if Washington and the founders were confronted by the modern American military industrial complex they would be flabbergasted.
Lastly shout out to Logan for the word cantankerous.
Not sure what type of government we would have gotten without the gravitas of GW. These chapters highlight that the country was so fractured that it required a unifying figure of GW to pass our constitution.
I think your right I think it was McCullough's 1776 where I read similar accounts of his disdain for the volunteer. I was speaking to the general population that saw the standing army as an indicator of imperialism. Would the convention have had the same outcome without Washington there? No probably not. Granted he was, relative to his peers in the convention, uneducated his symbolic presence was critical to the constitutions eventual adoption. The fundamental question here is how would the construction of the office of the presidency be different if Washington had been absent. Suppose for example instead of George as their ideal president the conventioneers thought of Franklin as their exemplar.
Was his presence fundamental to the design of the presidency in relation to wartime or was the title of commander and chief the pragmatic answer of the day to an obvious need in light of encroaching European powers.
by
David McCullough
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Quinn, please remember to do citations for books and authors not being discussed on this thread:
David McCulloughOnce you edit message 38, I will delete this reminder.
Citations are part of our rules and guidelines.
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Once again the citation is missing and the moderators on this thread should have reminded you:
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Ok Bentley, you guys are important enough to me that I will try and figure this out...otherwise I will do all in my power not to mention outside sources. Sorry to be a thorn in your side......
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Also Doreen we love outside sources but we have threads opened up for those and of course just add the citation to help out your fellow group members and to be able to take advantage of the powerful goodreads software.
Right sorry Bentley making citations from smart phones is difficult so will keep other books out of it.
It always amazes me how tentative the founding of our country was. These chapters hint at the fact that it wasa group of elites was able to craft a form of government for the common man--and it has stood up to time!
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I understand that the mobile app is a problem - we don't use it for that reason and always go in through the regular app. But thank you for understanding and you can always mention something and say that you will cite it when you get back to your regular computer. And of course then follow through - we do appreciate your helping the goodreads software populate the site and provide the helpful links for members.
You will also notice on the right hand side of each thread when citations are done properly that a list of books and authors are then documented, how many times they have each been mentioned and a section for books and one for authors. There is also a section called other topics that you can then click on which will indicate to the member where else on the site a particular book and/or author are also discussed and then the member can also go to those threads and those posts and read that discussion. Without citations that cross population never takes place and your post or your mention of a good book or a good author is lost in the shuffle and is never counted or accessible to via link to any other thread or even to the ones on this thread.
John Adams
Thank you, Bentley, for that reminder of citation rules.When you mention a name or book, double check the "add book/author" to put down the citation. The exceptions are Logan Beirne, Blood of Tyrants, and GW himself.
Bryan wrote: "Quinn wrote: "The fundamental question here is how would the construction of the office of the presidency be different if Washington had been absent. Suppose for example instead of George as their ..."After reading the descriptions in this book, I would loved to have seen Washington in person. He obviously had the look and demeanor of a natural commander, but this was not just based on physical attributes. He described himself to his tailor as 6 feet tall; Jefferson was supposedly even taller. In addition to a dignified appearance, he must also have had a great deal of personal charisma. Beirne describes the many visitors he entertained at his home. I think he must have been very good at interpersonal relationships.
Both he and Jefferson were poor public speakers. They wouldn't have done well in our media obsessed world, but how lucky we were that they dominated their own.
Thomas Jefferson
Quinn wrote: "The fundamental question here is how would the construction of the office of the presidency be different if Washington had been absent. Suppose for example instead of George as their ideal president the conventioneers thought of Franklin as their exemplar.Was his presence fundamental to the design of the presidency in relation to wartime or was the title of commander and chief the pragmatic answer of the day to an obvious need in light of encroaching European powers..."
I think Logan makes a interesting case of GW being a model for how a commander in chief conducts a war. Without GW, I think it would have been a lot messier in trying to figure this out.
I agree that it was probably practical to have a president execute the laws and run the war. This was an unstable time and maybe the delegates felt another war could happen (sooner than later), so why not a GW type.
Ann wrote: "After reading the descriptions in this book, I would loved to have seen Washington in person. He obviously had the look and demeanor of a natural commander, but this was not just based on physical ..."Indeed, Ann. Both probably did much, much better in small groups.
I'm going to need you to cite people who are authors, and in this case, good ole TJ:
Thomas Jefferson
This is a pretty telling quote:"While his military authority was sweeping, he used it virtuously. This convinced the delegates and the broader populace that the new American commander in chief, based on Washington's precedents, could be powerful without trampling liberty." (p. 45)
One thing comes to mind: just because you have a model, doesn't mean you need to follow it. I think this commander in chief idea still is fragile.
I am also wondering how GW's war-time decisions can be a model for the peace-time roles of the chief executive. Or is Beirne just exploring the role of commander in chief in this book? I am a bit confused. Maybe I need to read more carefully.
Ann, if I read correctly, Beirne is only concerned with commander in chief portion; I think how it relates to conduct of a war, but not beyond this part of the president.
Bryan wrote: "I'm going to need you to cite people who are authors, and in this case, good ole TJ"Correction made.
Ann wrote: "Bryan wrote: "I'm going to need you to cite people who are authors, and in this case, good ole TJ"Correction made."
Thanks so much, Ann, I appreciate your effort.
I suppose the commander in chief portion is even more relevant today, when the U.S. president is involved in the perpetual war against terrorism.
Thanks, Logan. We ask if you mention an author to cite them at the end of each post. This way it indexes the names which is helpful. I appreciate it.
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Alexander Hamilton
The History Book Club
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For the week of August 19th - August 25th, we are reading the Chapters Four, Five and Six of Blood of Tyrants.
This week's reading assignment is:
Week Two - August 19 - August 25-> Chapters FOUR, FIVE, and SIX p. 32 - 47 - FOUR – The Phoenix, FIVE - Wield the Sword, and SIX - Supreme Law of the Land
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up on August 19th. We offer a special thank you to Encounter for their generosity.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bryan Craig will be leading this discussion and back-up Assisting Moderators are Christopher and Jerome.
Welcome,
~Bryan
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
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If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
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Here is the Introduction Thread:
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Glossary
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Q&A with Logan
Please as you are reading post questions to the author's Q&A thread because author Logan Beirne will be participating and will be posting answers to your questions and will be available for a chat. We are very fortunate that he is making time to spend with us.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...