KopitalkGrapheneOS calls on privacy focused app developers to boycott European Unified Attestation
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kbalRemember when Google tried to bring remote “attestation” to PC web browsers? Everyone was horrified and they were forced to back down. Somehow when it happens to phones, people are slower to understand the danger — as if they’re not real computers, and naturally should belong to someone other than their nominal owners.
poVoqI am more concerned about GrapheneOS still using Shitter and Reddit (especially when they apparently have their own Mastodon instance) then this largely inconsequential but slightly better than the status quo initiative by a tiny German phone reseller (Volla Systeme GmbH, not to be confused with those Finnish Jolla aka ex-Nokia people).
I’m of two minds. I agree. But there is also the need to go to where the people having these kinds of conversations are.
Mikay should really seek help. He’s done so much for privacy, I think someone should really reference him to psychiatric help. Also relevant is the fact Motorola is not European and has a vested interest in Google maintaining the monopoly while they sell the only famous “private” alternative.
I started reading the full argument, and correct me if I am wrong, but don’t they always start with a defendable idea and end up simply sounding crazy as hell when they start talking unrelated shit about other projects?
Like, look at this: https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116200362765756182
They are literally saying that their plan is to ban GrapheneOS. That’s CRAZY, and obviously not true. It’s basically paranoid. Which I guess fits 😅
Isn’t that the whole point to Graphene OS?
I like my super secure OS being developed by super paranoid developers thank you very much.
Exactly.
What the attestation system would do is give some government agency de facto control over which OSs could be installed on phones.
Right now, using GrapheneOS and being outside of corporate attestation chains just means that you can’t use the NFC payment system. It could very well be that every major commercial service would deny you access if you couldn’t pass an attestation verification via some browser API.
An example would be if age verification were a thing, they could ‘think of the children’ argue their way into only allowing OSs with age verification systems which are approved by the government to access social media or any website that would be considered 18+.
EU countries have already tried attacking GrapheneOS as a tool of criminals. It doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to see how they would refuse to allow ‘the criminal OS’ to be part of their attestation chain. Or if chat control passes, only devices that implement the mass surveillance spyware would be allowed to be attested. The government wouldn’t allow non-compliant operating systems to pass their tests.
The point of an attestation chain is to provide control over which devices are allowed to be verified and to use that verification status to gate access to services.
Right now, using GrapheneOS and being outside of corporate attestation chains just means that you can’t use the NFC payment system.
FYI, I’m able to use NFC payments on Graphene OS using Curve Pay.
If attestation becomes “a thing” and apps cant be run on non-attesting OSs it could very well in practicality be banned since people wont want to use a platform they cant use their apps with. If you have a bank app that doesnt have a website version that could be a dealbreaker for GOS if its not a dealbreaker for you bankibg with that bank
rnerclerecently changed my bank.
i refused facial recognition so they simply fixed an irl appointment.
Councillor i met was an old user of Cyanogen.
Their app works without boogle services and that too was one of the reasons for my choice.
I’m guessing (and hoping too) that some banks won’t be closing their virtual doors to nonBoogled people
But attestation is already “a thing”!! These companies are just asking for a more democratic system. Might not be the best idea ever, but it’s at least better than Google’s monopoly.
I think they see the slippery slope emerge, and they take that slope to the logical extreme. The centralized gatekeeper for attestation, play integrity, etc, the EU sees it as mitigating security risks with Google, the corporations see it as opportunity to change the centralized gatekeeper; to maximize capital. It isn’t just a (terrible) strategic move for security, it’s also a move to align capital. (also imagine the meta data network you could create with the attestation, another data point for surveillance. think Chat Control) I see GrapheneOS prioritize security; not capital. The people/groups/companies they are often at odds with prioritize the mechanisms of capital (or surveillance capitalism) over security.
We can join our own private clubs. Like GrapheneOS club. Members only software for devs, experimental work, academia, and tinkering in the club makerspace.
“Recently, there were many issues with the X app for GrapheneOS users, and they allege that the new rules are the cause.”
I understand the greater issue at hand here, but why are people using GrapheneOS as a phone OS, but are STILL using X? And why is GrapheneOS using X?
earthwormwhy is GrapheneOS using X?
If you’re trying to convert new people to your religion, you have to leave the church.
sorghumBecause you gotta go to where the people are else they won’t hear the message.
Wouldn’t the very same argument apply here for the attestation?
GOS’s argument over the attestation is that it’s essentially the same as Google’s system. It approves the devices themselves regardless of their security. An approved device isn’t more secure in any way just because it’s on the list. It’s just a way of arbitrarily excluding any OS that they don’t like while still allowing devices that are obsolete or behind on security updates.
why are people using GrapheneOS as a phone OS, but are STILL using X?
Because your coworkers and your inlaws are still using it. And you phone company only posts their updates on xitter these days. It’s the same reasons why your still using whatsapp.
I personally don’t agree with these reasons, but they’re valid.
Nothing would make me happier than not having to use WhatsApp. Instead, I had to bend over backwards to get WhatsApp on a separate device entirely after they flagged and banned my account (multiple times over the course of a month) for random reasons (hackers trying to hack my account for 6 months straight is my guess as to why I got flagged) and wouldn’t let me log back in with my GrapheneOS phone, and if I ever forget to check that other phone for more than 2 weeks, I get logged out of all my companion devices and lose all my stickers and some recent chat history.
I floated the idea to my contacts of possibly not being able to come back to WhatsApp, they all essentially said I should just buy a new phone (have had my pixel for like a year) and get a new phone number (have had my number for 20 years). My own family scoffed at the idea of using something other than WhatsApp at all to talk to me.
So yeah. Fuck WhatsApp, absolutely fuuuuuuuck Meta, but we’re all literally doing the best we can given the situation we’re in.
youmaynotknowLet’s agree to disagree. My family knows I love them, and they know I’m fucking paranoid. So their options were limited, either insta Signal, or just call me on the phone (jmp.chat number via Cheogram), I got off of the WhatsApp wagon and, while some of them resisted at first, they started to feel left out because they were not part of the signal family group. So, they all still use WhatsApp and they all use Signal now. Same with my friends. Every single one of my oldest friends didn’t think about it twice and just installed signal (on ay easier than my family, as expected), and those that didn’t happen to be all the acquaintances, not one of them was ever considered a friend by me. And my mental health is so much better because of this.
Because people should use whatever they want. If there a piece of software that’s available for the OS you should expect it to work without issues.
pasdechanceThey might think that they are upholding open source secure communication but what they are really achieving with it is fortifying the US big tech duopoly. There are other aims than theirs, of maximum security, in the EU we are facing the real and very relevant issue of digital sovereignty, which is separate from the ambition for getting hardened mobile systems. Sure, possibly legislation would be preferable to regulate and open up what Google’s Play Integrity API is doing, but as long as that legislation does not exist, creating alternative systems is crucial.
I can’t shake the feeling that this isn’t really about the UA but the private feud of Graphene OS developers with pretty much every single other alternative OS or degoogled android. Yes, they are all less secure than Graphene OS, primarily because Graphene OS relies on huge man power effort by Google to keep the firmware at the cutting edge with swift security updates. That is all good and fine, for their cause but it is not the only legitimate cause out there.
I can’t shake the feeling that this isn’t really about the UA but the private feud of Graphene OS developers
Its like their comms guy is a spoiled 12 year old who’s pissed they didn’t get invited to the party. I say that as a big fan and daily user of GOS.
I get that’s common in tech, but if you’re going to neg on your competitors at least offer a solid alternative. Like attestation or not it satisfies a need a lot of orgs and developers have. Its not going away any time soon.
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Where did this site take that weird logo from
GrapheneOS with literally call anything shit that Gaelle from Murena touches. If Gaelle made billions and gave away an entire billion to an opensource project, GrapheneOS would whine day in day out about it. If Gaelle donated that billion to GrapheneOS, it wouldn’t surprise me if the disbanded or gave that billion away in order not to be associated with the money.
Attestation is definitely a tool to lock people in, but it has valid usecases that cannot just be ignored. For example, it claims to ensure that the device is safe, to a certain degree, from malware and tampering that could lead to security problems for applications on the device. Those claims are part of the appeal. Instead of writing pages of slander towards the developers of Unified Attestation and, what I can only describe as, losing their shit, why not be constructive. Propose alternatives, propose to work on something better, point to a group that could help work on something better, throw out ideas for improvements, etc.
A bit of drama is cute once in a while, but not like this.
It’s play attestation EU edition. Can the EU just go back to doing things that are actually helpful instead of putting European lipstick on all the American pigs?
The danger of ignoring it is that it happens anyway in a worse form than it might otherwise take. It’s the eternal pragmatism-vs-idealism situation. Taking the approach of no compromises is risky.
I’m not suggesting we ignore the problem by rejecting any imperfect solution, but I think this idea that anything EU-edition is inherently better creates an environment that blindly supports the surveillance state under the guise of consumer protection.
The major difference is that it’s opensource. But as I said, it’d be better if people proposed alternatives to attestation instead of just saying “attestation is wrong”.
But like… attestation is wrong. There should be no need to prepose an alternative because it shouldn’t exist in the first place. It should be the user’s burden to determine if their device is secure enough for accessing their personal stuff. My bank, or any app for that matter, should have no right to tell me whether or not my device meets their security requirements.
I disagree. Attestation is definitely not wrong in a corporate setting where you want applications to only run on safe devices.
Taken out of the corporate world, it is problematic though, that I can agree with. But the solution shouldn’t be abolishing it without knowing why it exists. My guess is that there is a legal precedent or threat for it existing. Banks, healthcare applications and so on have a good reason to want to run in a secure environment. However, and this I’d where I think the alternative should be, users must have the option to opt out or say “I don’t care what you think, this device is secure, I will be liable for any damages to my own data should this device be insecure”.
Unified Attestation might actually be the way to include an opt out that is legally binding. So, again, instead of just taking a hard-line “no, I’m right all the time, my opinion is absolute”, it might help to think critically about things and ask “why” and “what if”.
The EU is not doing anything in this, it’s some private companies.
It should do something though, forbid banks and other essential services from imposing arbitrary requirements for providing service.
The issue is that OS’s like /e/ and Jolla are quite insecure, meaning a verification that they’re “safe” can be a lie if the device is exploited, which it easily can.
GrapheneOS has their own attestation system, and some banks are using it.
Even GrapheneOS is not as insane to suggest ebanking should be restricted to locked down platforms.
EU should ban banks from requiring hardware attestation and other “security” excuses to refuse serving people.
Hardware attestation verifies that the phone and the OS its running on are real and not an emulator or a fake malware laced version.
It ensures that you don’t get your bank account stolen by a fake ROM with an infostealer inside.
No, it verifies that the phone is running an approved OS. If the app developer does not add your OS’ keys it will fail. This included GrapheneOS.
We have been web banking for decades on platforms without hardware attestation. The potential for anti-competitiveness abuse is not worth it.
It also does not protect the user. If your system is actually compromised they can simply replace the app, not allow it to run etc. I don’t see how it protects the user if they chose to run an emulator, what exactly is the threat to the user there?
If someone injects malware into your GrapheneOS image then the attestation won’t pass. That is how it works.
Where did I say a malware injected GrapheneOS image will pass hardware attestation?
The problem is that an unmodified GrapheneOS image may also not pass hardware attestation if the app developer has not whitelisted GrapheneOS’s key.
Also I hope GrapheneOS would simply inform the user or refuse to boot if the image does not pass attestation. In that case an app itself requiring attestation, based on it’s own list of accepted keys, has no security value, only gatekeeping potential.
GrapheneOS’s propaganda about every android ROM being insecure except their’s seems to working.
Nothing is 100% safe. There are varying degrees. GrapheneOS can be exploited just “the most secure phone OS” that is supposedly iOS.
If attestation is wrong and GrapheneOS is slamming another group for making an attestation system but GrapheneOS has its own attestation, doesn’t that seem a bit hypocritical?
They complain about /e/ and Sailfish because they are genuinely bad. You can see how bad /e/ is in my recent post.
They used to support DivestOS which was an OS designed for phones which don’t support Graphene.
The fact that they post about this on twitter makes everything they say invalid. Clowns talking about privacy on a site owned by Musk.
https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116200110686604617 here you go
I guess every privacy video on YouTube is wrong then, according to you
Only if it is only on Youtube
So most of them… yea nah, sorry, not a good take imo
But I agree that those videos should be put on alternatives like peertube or odysee