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woooo! "I'm in" *hacker voice*

i wanted to send a frq but i can't, what should i do to prove myself sensei

The most spoiler-free explanation I can give you is this: NOTHING mattered in the end, ZERO plot progression, ZERO character development. But if you don't mind spoilers,



This is the most bizarre asspull fanservice ending possible. And I cannot believe a seasoned writer like Fujimoto came up with this BS. People are speculating that the manga got axed due to low sales, but even then, it was totally possible to come up with a more sensible ending. I know you aren't a particularly big fan of the guy, but I used to love him (and I still think Fire Punch is one of the best stories ever written), so this is a deeply shocking and depressing turn of events for me.

I am lost for words. A truly riveting masterpiece that I'm happy to have experienced. 🙂

Well, pretty much what I said about Fire Punch v/s Texhnolyze. Instead of having abstract philosophies and goals, the characters act according to some very self-centered motivations. So when they clash and negate each other, their tragedy feels much more impactful. Honestly, Shigurui is probably the most similar thing to Fire Punch I've come across.

>Though I do wonder how they had a working community prior to finding Agni.

Well that's anybody's guess. Maybe they could produce food before their numbers dwindled, or maybe the local fauna was more plentiful earlier. Maybe they traded with other villages before Behemdorg destroyed them.

>Given the circumstances, and the fact that Agni is a near-indestructible, unlimited, and willing food source, it seems like a canny and practical solution to starvation.

Agreed. But there could be many reasons why depending on Agni wasn't sustainable. Besides the ones you've stated, one obvious reason could be Agni leaving the village, either by choice or by force.

As for Doma, I think you've raised a great point there. Even Doma's present self refuses to accommodate the dire situation of Agni's village within his morality, instead (likely) advocating for dying honourable deaths if it meant not being a threat to humanity. It's a bit hypocritical for a guy who refuses to die at any cost to advocate for others to die, so I guess Doma isn't as righteous as he'd like to think of himself. And yes, perhaps if Doma was privy to what exactly was going on in the village, more interesting arguments and counterarguments could've presented themselves in that dialogue scene. Oh well, we got what we got, which isn't too awful :)


>Again, I'd LOVE to see his reasoning.

Well I feel it's kinda pointless arguing about a writer's strength/preference. Like I totally see what you mean, but I cannot imagine Fujimoto writing some deep self-introspection arc for Doma or making that dialogue scene between him and Agni more argument-heavy. He just can't/doesn't write stuff like that, so I'd say it's better for him to write what he can and get it right than do something he can't and mess up. I love it regardless, and I think you do more or less like it, even if you would've preferred it done slightly differently.

>Do you think Doma was aware that Agni's body parts were being used to feed the village?

I think the point Doma was trying to make was that it didn't matter whose flesh it was. If they were already killing people for their flesh, that would be the worst-case scenario, but even if they were feeding on Agni, they would continue practising cannibalism even without a Blessed, according to Doma's hypothesis. I think that even if at that moment Doma knew they were eating Agni's flesh, he would've done the same thing.



As for the manga page you've shared, I interpreted it as mental gymnastics on Agni's part to somehow justify killing Doma other than purely out of revenge. Because if he truly believed that Doma was making up excuses, he wouldn't need to go "berserk". He went "berserk" because he had to suppress his rational side that knew Doma was correct. Which is why when he came back to his senses, he tried to commit suicide.



>Maybe his faith inspires/provides rationale that allows him to accept that the subjugation of Fuel is permitted while cannibalism of a single consenting Blessed isn't permitted. Even if Fujimoto just pointed out this contrast -- without explaining how Doma was able to emotionally/logically reconcile these beliefs -- I'd find Doma more interesting.

Doma's past self could justify the former as sacrificing the few for the well-being of the majority, but the latter was clearly going to bring harm to society, which is a rare instance of his future, rational self agreeing with his past actions. I don't exactly see why these two positions would be difficult to reconcile. Especially when you take into consideration that Doma's religion was practically a cult, so like most cults, any outside belief/action was to be seen as unauthorised, whereas anything on the inside was to be construed as executing the will of God.

> He ALL OF A SUDDEN recognises the immorality of his deeds because his God was a B-Movie actor. How does his God being a false idol make his actions "wrong" when they were "right" before?

Like I just mentioned, a cult can justify practically anything as executing God's will. So when he discovers his God was false and his cult was a lie, a lot of his past actions suddenly seem wrong, just like they do to any rational, moral individual. I guess Doma always subconsciously knew that he was committing crimes, but he believed they were a necessary evil since he was being directed to do them by God. Without God commanding him, he could never do what he did.

>I personally don't understand why something is good because it is "nightmarishly cruel".

I guess that made me sound like a sadist lmao. What I was trying to say is that stories like these are the most memorable and the most impactful to me, so I cannot give them anything less than perfect scores. To repurpose a great Shimeji Simulation quote, "I saw the moment when the sheer depth of its subjectivity went beyond objectivity, granting it divinity."

>What about the character motivations in Texhnolyze is less compelling than those in Fire Punch?

I feel that's because Texhnolyze's characters pursued more abstract goals. Eriko wants Texhnolyzation to mimic body parts, Yoshii wishes to see the vigour of human life, Oonishi wants order and unity, Shinji wants to be a part of the Class, and so on. Contrast that with Agni wanting revenge, Togata wanting to make a movie, and Judah wanting to die. I hope you see what I'm getting at. Fire Punch's character motivations just feel more personal. Of course, I am not saying that pursuing such personal interests over abstract goals is objectively better writing; it's just that I find it more impactful. (I guess Casshern Sins is closer to Fire Punch in this regard, but I was still way more invested in Fire Punch's characters.)

>Is this what you were referring to? If so, what makes his logic "irrefutable" (such that Agni's rage should be "soothed" by it but wasn't)?

Yeah. I don't see how anyone can dispute Doma's hypothesis. Agni himself couldn't deny it and initially decided to walk away. But even recognising that Doma was right couldn't soothe his rage.

>I saw this speech he gives to Agni (his "irrefutable logic"?) as a pathetic excuse to help him live with his deeds rather than a counterargument he genuinely believes in. I think this because Agni, shortly after walking away, recognizes it as a defense mechanism employed to keep him and his dependents alive.

I would disagree on this. I don't think either Doma or Agni viewed his reasoning as an excuse. Doma regrets all the atrocities he committed in the name of his God, but at the same time, he's able to single out the motivation behind this particular incident as being logically correct. Maybe he regrets burning them to the ground, but I don't think he believes his reasoning to be a product of his fanaticism, unlike other instances. And I don't think Agni recognised it as a defence mechanism. He recognises it as being correct, but he realised that doesn't change anything. Doma killed his sister; therefore, he must die. Logic can never soothe his rage.

And I think Doma's death is possibly my favourite moment in the story. There's so much to it. Doma commits unspeakable atrocities in the name of a God who was a B-grade film actor. Realising this drives him to insanity, but he doesn't want to die. He wants to help humanity, this time without using religion as a coping mechanism. He wants to do the right thing, but for that, he must live. "I know I've done unforgivable things! So unforgivable that there's no way for me to ever make up for them! But I can't afford to die!" And Agni recognises this. He comes to see Doma as almost a kindred spirit. A misguided soul, but one that always wanted to do the right thing for humanity. And he begins to walk away. But then he realised something. He doesn't want to kill Doma because he was wrong; he wants to kill Doma because he wants revenge. That's the truth, and no irrefutable logic can change his mind. And thus, Doma burns to death for his atrocities, right at the moment he sets out to atone for them. It's hands down one of the most nightmarishly cruel events I've come across in fiction, and it gave Fire Punch a permanent spot near the top of my favourites list.

If you ask me, I was very strongly invested in the characters, so their actions and pain really resonated with me. Compared to the relatively philosophical nature of Texhnolyze or Casshern Sins, these characters have devoted their lives to some very personal motivations, so when their actions result in horrifying consequences, it feels as if their entire reason for being has been subverted. You feel Agni's rage is justified, but then you hear Doma explain that a village subsisting on human flesh will accept cannibalism even in the absence of regenerative Blessed, and it hits you like a brick to the face. And yet, even in the face of irrefutable logic, Agni's rage couldn't be soothed...

I could go on. Sun destroying Agni's comfy life after he saved him multiple times, Judah wanting to die after centuries of looking over a batshit insane society, only to ultimately be granted immortality, Doma being driven to insanity after he realised that the God in whose name he justified numerous atrocities was in fact a B-grade film actor. While I see why you say these characters are not quite "likeable, relatable, grounded, and complex", I think that the genius of Fire Punch is its ability to convey such a depressingly nihilistic worldview through some very personal tragedies. Fire Punch isn't trying to make some grand statement on human nature; it's just the story of some people whose simple dreams ended in a devilishly cruel nightmare. Compared to abstract literature, I find works like Fire Punch much more impactful.

Thoughts on Fire Punch?

Probably best you dropped it, as that's largely how it handles the various characters being judged. Any amount of character study has more to do with the Bartending people, but that's still handled more so as dramatic tear jerker. If you weren't into ep 1, then I doubt you'd warm up much over the course of the series. It closes the arc but still manages to feel unfinished as well (feels like there is a more of a story to be told, and the way the red-headed bartender was incorporated felt off).

"To be precise, are you saying that Nomad is on-the-nose with its message of sport-life balance? Is it something in its depiction of racially-driven violence? Are you saying that the show is used by people to morally preen themselves?" Hmm... I suppose the first two. As for the third one, I never see any mention of this series anymore, except from you. XD

It's not a 100% neg tag as well. Often just has something that irritates me a bit starting around 4 and up on the score. Monster is in its own ultra-aggressive special needs category of moral preening, probably well beyond anything else I've tagged as such. Yeah, totally agree on the comparison of Monster and Nomad. Tenma is a horrible protagonist, and Urusawa is so up his own ass. I understand. You're making me feel a little guilty now, as I don't think Nomad is all that bad of a series, but I hate Monster and still haven't finished it. XD

For what it's worth, I like Mob Psycho okay, and I have it tagged with moral preening (it's also in its own preachy category). :S

Also, btw, fast Death Parade drop, as that's a really popular one. I'm not too keen on it either but found it watchable enough. Hate, hate, hate that OP!

I am trying to unite Patlabor fandom since 2 years ago and run a Patlabor Discord if you did not see!

I saw like 90% of it but never finished last 10 minutes lol!

Hi, you seem to be a Patlabor fan!