You’re playing semantic games to avoid believing/saying that you’re supporting fascism

I don’t think it’s semantics, I think there is a very clear distinction.

There is no “voting against” only “voting for” (in this context, obviously- for the presidential race)

I disagree, when only 1 of 2 outcomes are possible, choosing the preferable one is not a complete endorsement of everything they represent.

but I don’t believe there is a “right” or “wrong” with this

Why not? If you value harming less people, how is the “right” choice not the one that harms less people?

I enjoy these kinds of discussions as thought experiments, but there’s a time & place for it (and this thread isn’t it, imo)

It’s not a thought experiment though, it’s the possible outcomes of the election: D or R.

abstaining and voting third party are both valid options

Not if you want to actually influence the outcome. See, you’re engaging in thought experiments, I’m talking very pragmatically.

Other people, like myself, prioritize long-term consequences, principles, etc. over immediate consequences.

Long term consequences such as what a worse administration could do for 4 years? Like all the climate goals that got immediately revoked, is that long term enough? There is a long term impact to letting the greater evil win. How are Republicans better in the long term?

but it’s dishonest to try to absolve yourself of culpability with semantics.

Well at least we can agree on that. Abstaining and voting third party are objectively valid options, as in you are not literally forced to pick between only D and R, but that’s semantics, because there are only two outcomes.

I think if your “principles” include less bad things happening, they wouldn’t prevent you from choosing the less bad outcome. It seems to me like your principles are more about purity

I believe that, under capitalism, money is power.

Yeah

I believe that the more money you have, the easier it is to make more money.

Yeah

I believe that almost anyone with any power would be willing to use that power to benefit themselves.

I guess? Seems kinda vague, like yeah people will do what they can for their own self interest, but there are exceptions and limits I think.

I believe that both mainstream political parties in the US have been nearly completely captured by the extremely wealthy.

Yeah, but I think change is possible, and even barring change, sometimes enough pressure can move them on certain issues.

I believe that the mainstream media serve the interests of the extremely wealthy.

Generally yeah

I believe that the extremely wealthy have an outsized influence over independent media and social media platforms.

Yeah

I believe that the extremely wealthy generally prefer fascism to socialism, because socialism threatens their class interests (i.e. their ability to accumulate and hoard wealth, and therefore power)

Yeah

If you try your best to tell the truth instead of lying

Now see, that doesn’t seem like such a nice-guy good faith thing to say. I haven’t been lying, and I don’t appreciate you purporting that.

But okay, sure, I mean I wish we could have started with “hold back on personal attacks, don’t misrepresent my positions, or strawman my arguments,” don’t know why that wasn’t an option, but let’s go.

what do you do for work?

Unskilled labor, retail. That’s it. There are thousands of different jobs in different industries that are largely identical to mine, because I deal with customers. No, we don’t have a union.

after you honey

Okay good, now we’re getting somewhere. Personally, I don’t think choosing the lesser evil is “supporting fascism,” because it directly serves to keep the more fascist party out of office. Is less suffering, even in the short term, not worth choosing the fascist that hurts less people? Because if both options are fascist, then your only options in the system are “supporting fascists.”

I’m not discounting extra-electoral action, in fact I advocate for it, but in the capacity of an election choosing the lesser evil is the pragmatic choice. Please, please share your long term harm reduction plans, I’d love to have better people to vote for, but right now it’s D and R.

Sorry I don’t apologize to facsists. The only good nazi is a dead one

Sorry, but the shoe fits. Not gonna waste my time explaining how I’ve been misrepresented when I can just signal “that’s not what I said” instead.

why would I continue to discuss with you in good faith at this point?

Because you said you wanted to understand?

You are so obviously arguing in bad faith

Sorry buddy but that’s just me matching your energy, you couldn’t even go one reply in good faith. I matched your good faith energy when I got to that portion of your reply, and you immediately call foul. Now that seems like bad faith.

You have no points. You are wrong. If you self-reflect, you’d KNOW you’re wrong

mhmm right, everyone you disagree with obviously knows they are wrong but just won’t admit it.

You know how Trump supporters refuse to confront reality because they’re so deep in denial? That’s you. 100%.

Wow so because I disagree with you… I’m some kind of… Blue MAGA? How original, definitely not a thought terminating cliche.

That’s ableist honey

That’s literally not defending Democrats. I am not absolving them of any of their sins or wrongdoing, simply asserting they do less of it and are therefore preferable.

sure, you care about people, when black history month or pride month comes around and you want to earn brownie points on twitter

strawman. projecting again? who can tell. well I can for sure tell that you’re desperate for someone to tell you you’re a good person

I mean I’m the one here actually advocating for things that would make black and queer lives better, that’s more than you can say. How sad, you’re out-done by a pathetic little shitlib.

I’m not defending Democrats, I’m saying they are the better option. Better does not mean good.

I am trying to have a good faith discussion with you

Sorry bud you don’t get to pull “good faith” because you later admit that things have improved. If you want to have a discussion then maybe open with “yeah some things have improved” instead of denying it until it’s inconvenient. Well actually you opened with “Lmfao you are such a shitlib” so forgive me if you’ve now decided to be less of a cunt.

Literally nobody in a blue collar job says this

Sorry for not posting personal information, buddy.

So you agree that Democrats have not consistently gotten worse on every issue then? And therefore both evils are not getting more evil over time?

If you really want a good faith discussion, stop making assumptions about why I disagree with you and address my points.

That’s true, two things can be true! Like, perhaps these two:

1. Democrats are bad and need to be cancelled.

2. A Democratic administration would have resulted in much less suffering.

Things have been consistently getting worse since the '70s at least.

Well, except the acceptance of queer people, of course. Women’s lib is also much more widely accepted, if we’re going that far back.

Sure, some things have improved, nobody is denying that

Nobody except you?

The thing is, the stuff that has improved is like +5 improvement, and the things that have gotten worse is like -100.

I don’t disagree.

I want to go back a step, and try to understand you here. What do you do for work?

I do unskilled labor.

Wanting things to be better for marginalized people does not a fascist make.

Just because you disagree doesn’t make it ironical.

There’s no way you can be serious. How sheltered are you?

How sheltered are YOU? America is a conservative country and things change slowly, but they do change. Some thing have improved in my lifetime, I don’t think that’s a controversial statement. Just because capitalism hasn’t been completely overthrown yet doesn’t mean there is no change.

wow great meme friendo, very cool!

No leftist would dehumanize marginalized groups like you, I actually care about things being better for people.