cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/7671573
Sweden knew Canada’s Marc Kennedy was a notorious cheater.
So they set up a camera at the ‘hog line’ to record it.
And caught him doing it at the Olympics.
I trust whatever committee they have at the Olympics to make the judgement on this, but if our team is cheating, fuck those guys.
Yes, there’s some redactionist arguments about how it “doesn’t actually impact the rock,” but fuck that. We have a codified rule that specifically says you can’t do it, and these athletes are playing at literally the highest level that exists. They know better and have had time to practice better. If they’re cheating at the Olympics, I hope it follows them forever.
If it doesn’t impact the rock, then why do they risk breaking the rules to do it?
It can prevent over-rotation of the rock. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Because extreme cases can impact the rock. Barely touching the rock in the way caught on film realistically isn’t impacting the rock, but the rule needs to exist to prevent someone from actively pushing the rock after letting go.
But again, these guys know better and have had the time and resources to train better.
I automatically expect the Olympic Committee to be crooked.
Also, as ashamed as I am about the Canadian team breaking the rules, I also feel bad that there’s a part of me that thinks, “at least it’s just friggin’ curling.”
Everyone’s breaking the rules. If you think athletes are jot on something or have taken something to get there. I have a bridge to sell you.
Not really a good look for us. Would rather our athletes not cheat on an international stage representing our country. Play by the rules or not at all. Thank you very much.
Cheating seems a bit harsh. It should have been a penalty, it’s a burned stone. This is like giving up a penalty shot in basketball or an offside in hockey, neither of which should get someone kicked out of the Olympics. The swearing is the actual issue, it’s unsportsmanlike and shameful.
One instance should be a penalty.
However, apparently this athlete is known to have done it repeatedly and got caught because the Swedish team prepared their own camera angle. Only one instance may have been caught, but it was caught because he already had a reputation for it.
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Did we learn nothing from Men With Brooms?!
I am disgusted. Appalled. Normally that would also turn me on but in this case I find the actions too morally reprehensible.
a class piece of cinema.
For anyone struggling with why this is a big deal* it’s like if you were playing billiards and nudged the ball after you made the shot because you didn’t like the angle of the shot, it kind of ruins the whole point
* lol, I mean, for curling at least
…if said billiard ball weighed 40 lbs.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
But, the rules are the rules.
A tiny finger poke makes a ton of difference apparently, which is precisely why it’s forbidden. You’ve got a 45 meter long track, small adjustments matter a lot. Though honestly I cannot believe I am letting myself getting worked up over fucking curling.
I guess it’s just the reaction to people cheating at the highest competitive levels and then have the gall to be fucking abrasive assholes about it.
Having curled myself, I can assure you it does not…and if it did make a difference, it would almost certainly be negative, since you’re giving up any semblance of control that you had on the actual throw. There’s not going to be some “precision poke” that magically steers it where it needs to go. But don’t take my word for it.
Does it make any difference?
“No. The double-touching that I’ve seen has been incidental contact, and that’s fingers brushing or hand brushing on a 40-pound piece of granite,” said Eugene Hritzuk, a Canadian curler based in Saskatoon who has been involved in competitive curling and coaching for more than 60 years.
“What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event? You need the palm on your hand against that stone to do anything.”
Delivering a stone entails acute skills to slide on line and on pace, he said.
Once sliding on target and at the right speed, releasing the stone and then touching it with any force would cause it to veer off its intended line and speed, Hritzuk said. “That would not be advantageous to good execution.”
Canadian curling commentator John Cullen, who hosted the CBC podcast Broomgate: A Curling Scandal, said most top curlers will say that double-touching has no effect on the stone.
As well, most top curlers will double-touch at times and don’t think it’s a foul, he said.
“The idea that a top curler would let a rock go and then want to try to adjust it with their finger —it doesn’t seem like there’s any way you could get an advantage from that. It feels like it would be worse.”
But as I said, the rules are the rules, and I don’t think it’s wrong to enforce them.
It’s strange then how this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling, and that it is exactly what the Canadian team is known for, and it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling
Very confidently stated, but I really don’t think it is.
it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
It’s illegal because it’s way simpler to implement a “no touching” rule than to try to define game-changing and non game-changing touches in a way that would be enforceable.
And again, I have absolutely no problem with the rule being enforced, even though I don’t think for a hot second that it impacted the game.
If it doesn’t help. Why risk doing it if it’s against the rules?
I’ve been watching the curling through these Olympics, and after this was done there were reports that other nations teams also have claimed to have done this before, and that they don’t think it requires extreme policing like the Swedish team suggested. The latter half of their argument led me to believe it happens a lot more than we knew before this incident and they’d rather this not become a constant issue. Sounds like the Swedish team has been trying to accuse the Canadian team of this for a few years now, and have gotten a reputation internationally about it as sore losers.
So it’s only “what the Canadian team is known for” because of the swearing response, and the fact it was broadcast everywhere after Swedish media blew up about it, and why they only had umpires watching as of the next day. It seems like the rest of the world doesn’t care about this, and is more upset about the aggressive response (which I think everyone can agree with)
What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event?
This is a fun little physics problem.
The CoF of a curling stone on ice appears to be between .006 and .016 depending on fast its sliding.
So with a CoF of .006 that 40lb chunk of granite has an effective weight of just four ounces relative to that same chunk of granite at a CoF of 1. With a CoF of .016 it’s relative weight is 9 ounces.
So if the finger brush is in either the X or Y axis then basically anything more than what it takes to press a key on your keyboard will have an effect.
Trying to stop the stone from rotating is a whole different matter because then you’re working against it’s stored inertia and that will be much much higher. No way to calculate that though unless you know it’s rate of spin.
I appreciate you finding that article - interesting one.
I’m very much amateur curler, and can’t see how that tiny touch would impact it, but maybe it does at that level of competition.
Using a perfect shot to stop on the button with no spin, and energy= all kinetic (1/2mv2) =friction energy(F*deltaX), we get a release speed of 1.8m/s (with a .006 coefficient), and a 2.98m/s speed (with a 0.016 coefficient).
Using the same equation, I go ahead and rerun the number, but adding a distance of 0.1m, a value I used as a good approximation of a reliable accuracy of an Olympic throw, and a time of 0.2s (the approximate time I estimated based on the video), which means a deltaX2 of 0.36m, or 0.596m.
1/2mv2+fapplieddeltaX2 = ffrictiondeltaX Fapplied comes out to 0.326N to 0.526N which is a miniscule amount.
That seems to indicate that a tiny touch DOES have the potential to make a significant difference. Some sources say 0.25 to 0.5N is required for a keyboard press, so its roughly on par with that
But, how much of a difference does the sweeping make on stone speed? Its easy to say that tiny change can impact things, but how does it compare to, say, sweeping hard vs not sweeping?
This study shows a sweeping change of 45+/-8mm. Thus a change of 25% on top of that is not insignificant.
So the last question is, does it make sense for someone to train specifically by cheating this way rather than doing it right and just pushing off with a more accurate force? That’s likely going to be subjective, but seems difficult to me.
Who knows, maybe this is a crutch and it is making a difference. Sounds like they need to stop doing it any case, whether a way they’ve trained or not. Or wear a camera showing they don’t touch the rock and just hover their finger behind it.
I actually don’t believe that any of the accused in this care were intentionally cheating. Honestly it seems damn difficult to make any kind of consistently predictable trajectory change with the touches we’ve seen on video.
Your math and mine both show that a touch can impact the rock but I have to imagine that curling is like golf where you train and hone your swing (release) trying to make it as consistent and repeatable as possible. With that in mind you wouldn’t WANT a touch that mucks with the trajectory of the rock because you couldn’t ever do it precisely and repeatably enough to make it worthwhile.
In my opinion this controversy is happening because some curlers have an ingrained release routine that includes an unnecessary movement / flourish and competitors have decided to make issue of it because it’s getting close to giving a competitive advantage. That’s my two cents for what it’s worth.
Yeah, I agree. I think its extremely unlikely that this was intentional in the sense of cheating. It’d be a weird way to cheat.
Having curled myself,
dude…people do this when they over-rotate the stone after letting go of the handle. It’s not about steering or momentum forward. a slight drag will reduce the rotation.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I would love to see someone go to a curling rink and demonstrate this this is remotely possible.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I completely agree. There is absolutely no reason to do it, because there is no chance it will do anything.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
Regardless, it’s a fucking rule.
I have said several time that I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
I really don’t think so, especially the light touch that I’ve seen on video (which, to be fair, was Homan’s throw on the women’s side). Again, these things are damn heavy, and you’re not going to push them around with a finger without making a visible effort.
The people in front of the stone with brooms are literally changing the trajectory of the stone without touching the stone at all. Of course a finger touch can have an effect.
I think this whole issue is just set up by Big Curling to make this sport interesting.
They should be forced to give back the medal
🥌👈
If anyone’s interested in the world curling statement, here. Basically, umpire decisions in the moment are final and cannot be changed from video evidence, the thrower may retouch the stone as many times as they want before the line, BUT they must release the stone from the handle. So a little bit dubious? But they can’t change it even with video evidence.
Read on the subject and it seems a bit overblown, social media helping. After the controversy they started being more vigilant and then they “caught” a british curler also double touching.
That being said they need to adjust their release technique to make sure it doesn’t damage the reputation of Canadian curlers.
Also video replay and challenges could be a good idea.
I’m glad that Canadian guy throwing out the f-bombs apologized for it. I still think he was a dick but I can get over the lashing out if it comes with repentance.
And then there is this angle that shows he holds his finger beside the rock after release.
The “gotcha” photo has his finger buried internally in the rock, seeing this other angle shows his finger beside the rock, but from a different angle would appear to be touching it.
Not as clear cut as they want you to believe.
The pictures are from different throws. Here the person is wearing long sleeves, and the person in the “gotcha” picture is wearing short sleeves.
as much as people disliked what they said, they’re right - the point still stands.
THIS is the angle needed on the disputed throw, because his finger is behind the stone from camera’s POV. what’s happening in this throw could very well be exactly the case in the other
Thank you, I understand they are different pictures and it seems like a few people actually see the point I was making and didn’t just downvote me because you didn’t like my opinion on it.
If we had the alternate view of the original photo it might just show his finger beside. If we only use that angle they set up then everytime his finger is beside the stone it would appear to be touching it, which is why we either need proper camera angles, 3 of them, or we just let it continue as it has been for years and years.
Different shirt, different handle color
where’d this image come from? this is exactly what I’ve been looking for, a shot from the appropriate angle
Why is there not a camera from the top pointing down? Wouldn’t that solve any disputes?
You can’t cheat when it’s not a real sport 🤣
I’m kidding guys relax
Now you’ve just pissed off the cheaters and the curlers
They’ll have to hurry hard and get me
Say sorry Canada geez
