To start off, the context of this question stems from the current widespread disdain for Tesla and people by and large taking it out on owners and dealers. I’ve begun to wonder if there should be a similar disdain and protest of SpaceX at this point…
I’ve personally found space travel to be a waste of time, energy, and resources. That view may be shortsighted and reductive, but in the grand scheme of things I cannot justify space exploration and the advancement of space travel, especially when it is socially and fiscally benefitting the worst people.
I am not ignorant to the advances we have been able to make due to what we’ve learned in space. I just can’t see a situation in todays social, economic, and political climate where we gain anything that will help common people in the face of resource depletion and global oligarchy.
That’s why I ponder whether agitating SpaceX enjoyers is worth it.
I am eager and willing to be shown my ignorance in this topic because I am very jaded and have trouble seeing the tangible goal here from a pragmatic perspective, especially when SpaceX seems to be the main purveyor of space shit.
SpaceX's awful environmental record should absolutely be demonized.
As for the tech, I think of it this way: if America was a functional country, we would have invented what SpaceX has invented in the public sector. It is only because we are ideologically committed to capitalism that we've done so in a private corporation, there is nothing particularly unique or worthwhile about SpaceX that allowed them to come up with what they've come up with.
So with that in mind I like the rockets, engineers and scientists, but hate the corporation and the sloppy way it's run. I hate how Starlink is fucking up earth observation of space, and on a larger level I hate how instead of having one space program that proceeds logically and efficiently we have a bunch of them that needlessly compete with each other.
I think if you're gonna agitate against SpaceX enjoyers, the way to go would be to focus on their environmental record and on how there is no rational reason that what they do should benefit the bank account of a single person.
if America was a functional country, we would have invented what SpaceX has invented in the public sector. It is only because we are ideologically committed to capitalism that we've done so in a private corporation
It’s literally called NASA. But the work is contracted out to SpaceX because well, no gives a shit about privatization including people on this site, and when the public sector does get its hands on something everyone wants to make it ‘more efficient’ so they let the capitalist pigs destroy it, rinse rpeat
The big problem is that NASA has always contracted out the building of rockets. Every single rocket that's ever put a cargo into orbit for NASA, and every single crew vehicle that's ever launched from US soil carrying NASA astronauts, has been built for NASA by some private contractor. This practice even predates NASA itself. In the last days of WW2 when the US army was capturing V-2 rockets and related equipment and plans, they contracted out the engineering analysis to Chrysler.
contracted out the engineering analysis to Chrysler.
Chrysler
That’s fucking terrifying.
How excellent. Spacecraft creaking like a fucking grand cherokee with just a little death wobble as you exit the gravitational field
no gives a shit about privatization including people on this site
Name these pro-privatization Hexbear users so we can ban them.
NASA's always hinged on giving huge contracts to the military industry complex and it's always suffered for it. Even at its most "gee, it sure would be nice to have [space thing] for national security or status or whatever" levels, it still couldn't get around the American government's driving ideological need to make sure a rich bastard is wetting his beak with every cent the government spends. It's just that that rot has gotten worse and worse over the years and eroded even the "no seriously the private sector benefits and profits massively from this public sector work even though they're not allowed to directly tear it apart and steal the wiring to sell" stuff with an earnest belief that tearing out the wiring and selling it for scrap really would be more profitable and better.
All valid points, and articulated much better than I could have.
I think the angle I’m coming from aligns with what you said. I don’t mean to fully demonize the science, but just the shitheads who lay claim to it as a means of generating profit.
privatized nasa. he's stealing our tax dollars to fund his personal spaceships fiefdom. classic
The way I see it, calling space stuff "a waste" feels like it's kind of reflecting a capitalist mindset of austerity, right? The problem really isn't with the exploration or travel itself, because not everything mankind does needs to have some sort of immediate tangible material benefit for a party, right? And the problem also isn't really with the resources it takes to launch rockets, because our planet is in truth very rich, scarcity is artificial. The problem really lies entirely in the mode of production under which space exploration/travel happens, with the fact that it is being done for the immediate tangible benefit of a party — the bourgeoisie — and that they in their pursuit of infinite growth are willing to turn our planet into an oven over the trillions of dollars to be made from mining asteroids.
it's kind of reflecting a capitalist mindset of austerity, right?
Yeah, I concede that my description lends itself to this for sure. People should be able to enjoy things without the pressure of it having a tangible impact outside of joy.
Appreciate your perspective, I definitely intended to promote a nuanced discussion about this because I’ve definitely had a more dichotomous view of this topic that I know is not right or beneficial.
Exactly, I have a huge blocker when attempting to look at this through a lens other than the current one. Society appears to be crumbling around me, but I’m supposed to act like the next iteration of memory foam is a net positive of continuing to fund private contractors in their race to colonize mars???
I just want a society where the needs of the many mean more than the egos of some fucking nerds with god complexes.
As a space enjoyer, all military contractors should be demonized. I don't give a shit what new technology they're developing. There's nothing cool about Wernher Von Braun making breakthrough discoveries in service of the Wehrmacht.
I would draw a line between space exploration and space travel though. Things like space telescopes and extraterrestrial probes are benign, compared to generally wasteful and egotistical missions to put Whitey on the Moon while we bulldoze the homeless into soylent green.
I would draw a line between space exploration and space travel though. Things like space telescopes and extraterrestrial probes are benign…
Agreed! I in no way mean to demonize the science and knowledge we can gain through observation.
And to your first point, exactly the angle I’m trying to take and the feelings I’m trying to convey. Supporting any of Musks endeavors feels like direct fiscal support of a fascist agenda no matter how cool space may be.
wasteful and egotistical missions to put Whitey on the Moon while we bulldoze the homeless into soylent green.
In a just world, space travel would be used in the pursuit of solving problems here on Earth. If you can keep people alive in the cold vacuum of space with no oxygen, you can keep people alive in the snow at high altitudes on the ground. Same goes with extreme heat, radiation exposure, and so on.
I could see putting people on Mars, for example, to develop ways to prevent skin cancer or test exposure to extreme levels of UV radiation for plants. You don't have to destroy the atmosphere on Earth, you can use the already destroyed atmosphere on Mars. Not to mention, harvesting minerals from asteroids to provide nearly unlimited amounts of resources, including fresh water.
But unfortunately, we live in a capitalist hellscape where (like you said) trips to space are for pure ego. Discoveries aren't turned over to the public, they're kept hidden to prevent other companies and nations from benefitting. And the priority isn't on helping solve serious problems like homelessness or food insecurity or cancer. The priority is stealing money from the public to funnel into private hands.
we should have a disdain for spaceX, but echoing other commentors, its because they're a private company that does military contracts who could be consolidated into a public entity focused on betterment of humanity.
probably the only good thing, but if starlink was a public good and not controlled by any one government it seems like a public good on the tier of sewage systems or electric grids. internet almost anywhere using a special antenna and electricity. yeah i know cell towers exist but bypassing the need for them is a really fucking cool and honestly would be useful (sorry i have tech brainworms)
space travel is a meme to me, but making it cheaper to put satellites up in the air is a huge innovation. if only it was better regulated so we didn't have a chance to landlock ourselves due to space debris
(sorry i have tech brainworms)
Me too, as much as I hate it, I have an appreciation for cool tech sometimes.
But I agree, if it was public and regulated to avoid the space junkyard in orbit, that would be a different conversation entirely.
Image Description Service:
Man walking down street looking back over his shoulder at a Woman with the text "Space-X" superimposed over her. The Man looks very intersted in this woman. The Man is also holding hands with but pulling away from a Woman with the text "NASA" superimposed over her. The Woman labeled "NASA" does not look happy that the Man has noticed the other Woman labeled "Space-X".
"Is space exploration worth it?" and "Should SpaceX be allowed to continue to burden humanity with its existence?" are two separate questions. Leaving the former question aside, SpaceX employees ignore established best practices, are bad neighbors, trash the environment, and waste resources. I wish the company a very nice rapid unscheduled disassembly.
I've been thinking about that too, recently. As far as I know, Musk likes to take credit for everything SpaceX does, but he's largely insulated from their daily operations, it's like a child-proofed tablet. That alone makes me a little less hostile towards the company, but I'm still very negative towards it. I can find the source for that claim about it being insulated later if you like. Tesla and X seem to be his pet companies.
Regardless of my opinion about SpaceX, I'm very divided towards space exploration. It's cool as hell, I love it, I'm fascinated by it and would like to learn more and more about the universe. I'm pretty enthusiastic about astrophysics and always watch and listen to stuff about it. On the other hand, though, I'm fully aware of how expensive this kind of stuff is, and I do have a "Whitey on the Moon" feeling towards dedicating that much money to something that, realistically, hasn't yielded a lot of progress for mankind lately.
Yeah, space research has given us GPS, which is objectively useful. We certainly have lots of useful tech that came from developing better tools for space exploration, I'm sure. And yeah, capturing an asteroid and mining it for resources is great and all that, but will people actually benefit from that? It seems that space exploration, a seriously aspirational field, is completely detached from concerns about the well-being of mankind. It's just a bunch of billionaires grandstanding about mining asteroids, colonizing Mars (god only knows why) and it's all in the name of resource accumulation. Why the fuck would we care to colonize a dead planet?
So yeah, I'm going a bit off-topic here, but SpaceX kinda represents what I think about space exploration in general. What can we get from it? Where does it take us? Why not direct all these resources to the betterment of our material conditions here, on Earth? Can we do both? I'm sure there's enough money for doing both at the same time, but how can we direct space research in such a way that it's not just self indulging in satisfying our curiosity? Yes, it's aspirational, I get it, and it opens our minds to the wonders of the universe and all that, but... what do we get materially from it?
Why the fuck would we care to colonize a dead planet?
So we can build a 1:1 replica of Venice on it and employ teenage girls as gondolier tour guides, obviously.
So yeah, I'm going a bit off-topic here, but SpaceX kinda represents what I think about space exploration in general. What can we get from it? Where does it take us? Why not direct all these resources to the betterment of our material conditions here, on Earth? Can we do both? I'm sure there's enough money for doing both at the same time, but how can we direct space research in such a way that it's not just self indulging in satisfying our curiosity? Yes, it's aspirational, I get it, and it opens our minds to the wonders of the universe and all that, but... what do we get materially from it?
This is very much where my thought process leads me and it’s tough to see past when the rest of society seems to be in such a bleak state. It’s just hard to acknowledge that mankind will actually benefit, but I know that my opinion ignores the very real part of life where we have to find things to enjoy. Space is in fact cool, I cannot deny that.
why would i not demonize a stupid useless corporation for doing stupid useless shit for profit?
Normal people can buy teslas. Normal people can not buy spacex rockets. Boycotting tesla is therefore something that can actually be done as protest.
Is there? What actually changes with a social boycott? The people that are really interested (enough to work there) will probably stay interested, and it's not like it'll make their government contracts or launches disappear.
it's horrible for the environment
