cross-posted from: https://pawb.social/post/42620143

Their lives are blissful… free from the burden of self doubt.

Revolutionary Spain represents an example of extremely effective armed resistance to the rise of fascist forces backed by Hitler and Mussolini, surviving for years. By contrast, many established democracies collapsed relatively quickly when invaded.

For more information, you can check out an anarchist FAQ’s answer to the question, “Does revolutionary Spain show that libertarian socialism can work in practice?”. For a more current example of an anarchist society working in practice, you could also check out the Zapatista movement, an anarchist society which today consists of at least 300,000 people.

If you’re unfamiliar with anarchism, you probably have some misconceptions about it, so I encourage you to watch the Q&Anarchy video series by Thought Slime or have a look through an Anarchist FAQ, because it’s almost definitely nothing like what you think.

  • ComradeSharkfucker@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    13
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    19 hours ago

    Don’t get me wrong, I love the Spanish anarchists. Their story is very romantic and inspiring. However, they didn’t exactly succeed no? The Spanish put up a solid resistance to fascism but in doing so they had to abandon quite a few of their ideals. I mean they had labor camps yk? They had to a build a semi-state apparatus in order to survive and I think that really undermines the message here.

      • Wakmrow@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        18 hours ago

        Ok but it didn’t work.

        I’m not saying anarchism as a political concept is doomed to failure based on history (though one could make an argument) but when looking to the past for inspiration toward the future, a few years of anarchist political experiment in Spain does not instill much confidence.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          17 hours ago

          They fought tooth and nail for three years against a regime which was supported by Hitler and Mussolini. Clearly they should have used anarchist magic to defeat a regime that completely dominated the continent.

          For a more current example of an anarchist society working in practice, you could also check out the Zapatista movement, an anarchist society which today consists of at least 300,000 people.

          • Samskara@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            4 hours ago

            The Zaptistas have their ideological base not purely in western anarchism and Marxism. Liberation theology and catholic religion plays a big role in practice. They also emphasize a mystical connection to the land (people of maize), so their ideology is adjacent to blood & soil nationalism in some ways. They also leverage lots of traditional power structures like family clans, tribal loyalties, and such.

            They have been successful in a way as they are still around and actually have local government structures in place that seem to work. However the EZLN hasn’t succeeded in providing stability and security to the region. Economically it’s still one of poorest regions in Mexico.

            The limited success of the Zapatistas is more a sign of the weakness and failures of the central government of Mexico. They have managed to build a somewhat functioning local government and militia providing security in a remote poor rural area.

            Similarly to the Machnov anarchists in Ukraine, Catalan anarcho-syndicalists, they leverage ethnic nationalism for cohesion.

            What the Zapatistas have achieved is admirable, but their model doesn’t transfer to highly developed multi ethnic multi cultural highly urbanized countries with disintegrating social bonds.

            Western contemporary anarchists are mostly fringe and usually not well connected with traditional structures like family, ethnicity, nation, religion.

    • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      12
      ·
      1 day ago

      Liberals can’t help falling over themselves to claim anarchism always fails despite the fact that anarchism resisted fascism more effectively than liberal nations and despite the fact that liberalism inevitably leads to fascism.

      Liberalism is collapsing into fascism right now. It always has, and it always will. It is inevitable.

      If we want to resist the rise of fascism, it would be good to learn from an example which was more successful at doing so than every other nation in mainland Europe, no?

      How does capitalism inevitably lead to fascism?

      Basically, the issue with capitalism is that the more wealth you have, the easier it is for you to make more money. And since money can be used to buy goods, services and influence, there is always a way to use money to gain more political and social power. With that political and social power, you can push society and the legal system in the direction you want to go. So you can use your wealth to gain power, and then you can use your power to change laws and society so that you can make even more wealth and power. It’s a positive feedback loop.

      Obviously, though, if the billionaires and ruling class are accumulating more and more of our society’s wealth, that inevitably means that there’s less for everyone else to go around - therefore, working class people feel poorer and poorer. Meanwhile, the economy is going absolutely great for rich people, so inflation continues to go up - everything gets more expensive, but wages don’t increase. The wealthy just keep more and more of the wealth for themselves. To accumulate more and more wealth, they change the laws so that they can avoid paying taxes, so public services collapse. Politicians are lobbied to ensure that public funds are diverted away from where it is most needed - housing, healthcare, transportation, infrastructure - and instead into industries where their class interests most benefit from it, such as weapons manufacturing and extractive industries such as fossil fuels and mining.

      The working class are bound to notice that their lives are getting shittier and shittier, and if that situation is left unchecked, the working class would realize that the ruling class are fucking them over, rise up, and overthrow their rulers. Obviously, the ruling class need to do something about this, but there’s no solution that the ruling class can offer. They’re causing all of the problems, to fix them they’d have to give up some of their wealth and power - and that’s not something they’re going to do. So they need to find someone else to blame the problems we have in society on. Unfortunately, though, no matter who they blame the problems on, and no matter what they do to “fix” it, the issue will continue to persist, because the material conditions underlying the issues are, very intentionally, never addressed.

      So, the conundrum returns: The ruling class said that minority A caused all of the problems, minority A is persecuted and oppressed, but society doesn’t actually get any better. Either the problem wasn’t minority A, or minority A just hasn’t been oppressed enough yet. So the ruling class can either escalate the oppression, or they can shift the focus to another minority group. The division continues to escalate in terms of how vitriolic and extreme it is, and it also continues to divide the working class into smaller and smaller groups.

      To get the working class to buy into this hateful message, they need to take advantage of our worst instincts, and one of those instincts is the in-group bias. The majority are manipulated into being suspicious, then intolerant, then hateful, then violent, then genocidal, towards whatever the targeted minority of the day is. Anything that can be used to divide the working class - sexuality, nationality, immigration status, ethnicity, religion, sex, gender identity, age, all of these will be used as wedges to keep the working class split apart and not working together, because they know that if the working class actually unite against them, they are completely and truly fucked.

      That’s exactly how fascism manifests. It’s because it’s possible for people to accumulate power through wealth. This is why capitalism must be abolished. If we do not abolish capitalism, fascism will always return. It’s just a matter of time.

      But can't capitalism can be reformed?

      While, of course, some laws to reform capitalism can be passed, and would definitely alleviate the worst harm caused, over the long term, capitalism cannot be reformed.

      Any attempts to reform, democratize or socialize capitalism may yield short term improvements to quality of life of the working class, but if capitalism is not abolished, it will always reassert itself, and capitalism inevitably leads towards fascism.

      The New Deal prevented the US from sliding into fascism in the 20th century, so that’s ultimately a good thing, but it did not go far enough, and that’s why we have the resurgence of fascism in the 21st century America.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          11 hours ago

          Both US mainstream parties were neoliberal, so… yeah? I’m not sure if you were being sarcastic or not. They enabled eachother. While the Republicans are much worse, the Democrats didn’t prevent the rise of fascism, because doing so would have required moving towards the left, which would have impacted the class interests of wealthy donors. If the Democratic party hadn’t gone around parading with Liz Cheney and denying the genocide, they’d have won, they literally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with Harris/Biden.

          • REDACTED@infosec.pub
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            10 hours ago

            But in reality, the real reason why democrats lost is because the party and majority who support it are quite lazy people. In all stats/online pollings the democrats should have won, but they didn’t because only minority actually went to vote.

            If democrats had the same engagement as conservatives, it would have been an easy win.

            • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              9 hours ago

              The Democrats didn’t have a candidate who inspired people to get out and vote. They just keep trying to appeal to some moderate centrist vote which doesn’t actually ever materialize.

              If Harris didn’t peddle the exact same anti-immigrant, pro-israel, genocide supporting neoliberal shit and instead advocated for medicare for all, wealth tax, opposition to war, and bringing Israel to heel, she would have absolutely swept the election.

              That’s why the Republicans had a stronger turnout. Trump was offering his base all of the psychotic shit they love.

              You can’t blame voters for not being engaged and getting out to vote when the very best they can hope for is the not-quite-as-bad-as-Trump candidate. That shit does not work. They need to actually give their voters things they want, not just be the lesser evil.

              • REDACTED@infosec.pub
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                8 hours ago

                You cannot imagine how little people cared about the things you care about in US (Ie. Israel/Gaza). It was mostly social media being loud about it, but it didn’t affect the results. If you genuinely thought Harris would support Israel more than Trump, I have few bridges to sell you.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          23 hours ago

          With all due respect - I don’t really want to argue with a fellow leftist here while there are liberals attacking us all over the place - the CPC was hardly the only force in China fighting against Imperial Japan, the Second United Front also involved various nationalist forces, including the Kuomintang and various warlords. Were it not for Chinese nationalism and anti-Japanese sentiment, the socialists would have been utterly crushed long before the Japanese invasion of China.

          • Samskara@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            4 hours ago

            Exactly. The Chinese communists were barely fighting the Japanese. The nationalists did most of that. The communists were hiding out in remote areas during the long march. After the Japanese had left, the communists managed to beat the weakened Nationalists.

          • SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            13 hours ago

            I don’t really want to argue with a fellow leftist here while there are liberals attacking us all over the place

            Me, an ML, defending my anarchist comrades from the liberals o7

            • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              12 hours ago

              Appreciate the support comrade! It’s not uncommon for me to defend communist states/leaders in much the same spirit, whenever I see them being unfairly maligned, such as recently where I defended Mao Zedong, my anti-imperialist goat. Stalin is a bit harder to defend. I’d defend Khrushchev, except I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone criticise him. Probably because most liberals don’t really know much about the USSR tbh.

              Anyways, solidarity!

      • Fontasia@feddit.nl
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 day ago

        So the system that lasted for less than 3 years before enabling Franco worked better than the system between Washington and Nixon? Fascism arises from popularism, someone giving three word answers to difficult questions, it’s always going to rise up and people like to unite under the idea they could get on with things witbout the world being messy and complicated. I quite like the idea of a head of state and cabinet being chosen by lottery, I believe it would have the exact same ebbs and flows of an elected person. but I know that eventually someone would come in and put a stop to it.

        And did Fidesz directly provide the crib notes or did they let you copy paste from r/politics directly?

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 day ago

          So the system that lasted for less than 3 years before enabling Franco

          It fought tooth and nail for three years against a regime which was supported by Hitler and Mussolini. Clearly they should have used anarchist magic to defeat a regime that completely dominated the continent.

          America was never invaded. If it had been, it would have folded like a paper bag. Heck, it still hasn’t been invaded, and yet it is fascist anyways, and has been for a long time now.

          did Fidesz directly provide the crib notes or did they let you copy paste from r/politics directly?

          I wrote literally all of it myself. I haven’t been on Reddit for years. I notice you’d rather disparage me than actually address any of my arguments, and I prefer not to waste my time with people who argue in bad faith, so I will leave this here.

          Much love, solidarity forever!

  • OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    37
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 day ago

    A couple of years sounds nice but no fully anarchist society has ever overthrown a state and remained stable long-term at a national level.

    I get that its more of a ‘process of radical change’ rather than an objective ‘end goal’, but i always thought anarchy was strangely way too optimistic about human cooperation. No rules (obviously there would have to be some), police or concept of state? With the amount of people ive encountered on this planet, that requires everyone to think exactly the same or change their views accordingly at the same exact time. Oof good luck with that

    • village604@adultswim.fan
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 day ago

      A couple of years with the population of a large city.

      The only way they’d be able to achieve their dream world is by conquering the planet and forcing everyone to obey, which is the antithesis of anarchy.

      • OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 day ago

        I agree. The idea is much more attractive when you are an angry teenager itching for action. Then you get older, learn more and learn more about how humans work.

    • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      12
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 day ago

      Anarchists believe in rules, we just don’t believe in rulers. We believe that the people who live and work in a place should decide the rules of that place, rather than the king or billionaire or whoever.

      You should check out the Q&Anarchy video series, it addresses all of the concerns you have, and then some.

      • village604@adultswim.fan
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 day ago

        But not every citizen is going to be able to individually weigh in on every decision, right? It would make more sense for people to pick someone to represent their interests in their stead.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 day ago

          But not every citizen is going to be able to individually weigh in on every decision, right?

          The idea is that every citizen is able and has a right to weigh in on every decision that affects them, if they want to. Anarchists generally propose direct democracy and/or consensus based decision making systems.

          It would make more sense for people to pick someone to represent their interests in their stead.

          The problem with representative democracy is that power corrupts, as we’ve clearly seen, again and again and again. Even a good person given power will almost definitely use it in some way to benefit themselves. It usually starts out in a very small, nearly harmless way, but progressively corruption worsens, especially as the need to cover up the previous acts of corruption becomes a concern.

          • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            1 day ago

            How do you propose, in practice, to ensure that every citizen has a practical opportunity to weigh in on all the individual things affecting them, without giving them the option to have a representative?

            Off the bat, I can think of a myriad of reasons this becomes prohibitively difficult for anything more than a few dozen people, but I’m honestly interested in hearing about a solution that could even conceivably work at a district (tens of thousands of people) not to speak of societal (millions) or international (billions) level.

            • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 day ago

              That’s a really great question, thank you for asking.

              I will begin, in the classic anarchist tradition, of pointing out that I do not have all of the answers - this always sounds like a bit of a cop-out, but don’t worry, I’ll answer your question directly in a moment, and it’s really important to communicate this because it’s super important: anarchism isn’t some blueprint for a society that we follow by rote and dogmatically implement, but rather a base layer of ideas we can use. As per an anarchist FAQ

              Anarchists have always been reticent about spelling out their vision of the future in too much detail for it would be contrary to anarchist principles to be dogmatic about the precise forms the new society must take. Free people will create their own alternative institutions in response to conditions specific to their area as well as their needs, desires and hopes and it would be presumptuous of us to attempt to set forth universal policies in advance.

              Also, I’ll point out that my objection is to representative democracy, i.e. the current system, where voters are mere passive spectators of occasional, staged, and highly rehearsed debates among candidates pre-selected by the corporate elite, who pay for campaign expenses. The public is expected to choose simply on the basis of political ads and news sound bites. Once the choice is made, cumbersome and ineffective recall procedures insure that elected representatives can act more or less as they (or rather, their wealthy sponsors) please. My objection is not with people representing the opinions of others, as long as representatives have very limited power, a limited mandate, and as long as that power can be withdrawn and representatives recalled in a quick and easy way.

              Anyways, with that out of the way, I will approach your question by explaining one possible system out of infinitely many which are possible.

              Anarchists believe in structuring things from a bottom-up approach, so let’s start at the bottom - each neighborhood could have a participatory community which makes decisions for that neighborhood around practical, everyday decisions that directly affect shared living. For example, maintenance of shared areas, the use of community buildings/rooms, improvements to the neighborhood, etc.

              Of course, neighborhoods do not exist in a vacuum - neighborhoods would want to work together to share resources and to collaborate to achieve greater goals, so confederations of neighborhoods could be formed. Each neighborhood could select one or more delegates to attend confederation meetings and speak on the behalf of the neighborhood, but not make decisions on behalf of them. Instead, each delegate would attend the confederation meeting, and meet with their neighborhood to bring them news of what was discussed at the delegation meeting. Then, in the neighborhood meetings, each neighborhood would come to their own decisions around what should happen at the confederation level, and a delegate - not necessarily the same person as before - would take those decisions, questions, concerns and discussion points back to the confederation, where either a consensus would be reached, or further discussion - which could again, be brought back to the neighborhood to share. In fact, rotating the role of delegate would be a really good idea, so that multiple people can get a better idea of the issues in the wider community and understanding of how the bottom-up power structure functions.

              The cool thing about anarchism is that we can experiment on these ideas and try out different things in a very responsive, small scale way, since the lower levels of participatory communities are small, even bad ideas have very limited harm if/when implemented, and other communities can learn from the failures of others.

              I hope this makes sense, and I hope you see how this would differ from representative democracy. The main difference is where the power lies - under anarchism, the power to make decisions always remains with the people as a whole, rather than being concentrated into the hands of a very select few.

              If you are interested in learning more, have any doubts about problems with the ideas I have outlined, or some other approaches which could be taken, I would strongly encourage you to have a read of an Anarchist FAQ’s section about what an anarchist society would look like - I can pretty much guarantee that any question you have is answered somewhere in there, it’s nothing if not comprehensive!

              • SaraTonin@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                19 hours ago

                I used to go out with someone who lived in a commune, which operated how you describe here - everybody gets a say in every decision. It was very equitable, but nothing *ever * got done. Part of the roof was falling down and the exposure to the elements was damaging the building at that point. The longer it was exposed the more damage was being done. The wall was starting to crumble. If it fell down it could damage as-yet undamaged parts of the building. A couple of families had already had to move to a different part of the building

                At that point it had been 10 years and no decisions had been made. No decisions were close to being made. Their home was literally being destroyed and potentially endangering people -they were and had been no issues more pressing - and nothing has been done for a decade

                That was ~15 families living together. And you think it’s feasible to scale that up to millions of people by increasing the group size and number of steps?

              • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                24 hours ago

                Of course, neighborhoods do not exist in a vacuum - neighborhoods would want to work together to share resources and to collaborate to achieve greater goals, so confederations of neighborhoods could be formed. Each neighborhood could select one or more delegates to attend confederation meetings and speak on the behalf of the neighborhood, but not make decisions on behalf of them. Instead, each delegate would attend the confederation meeting, and meet with their neighborhood to bring them news of what was discussed at the delegation meeting. Then, in the neighborhood meetings, each neighborhood would come to their own decisions around what should happen at the confederation level, and a delegate - not necessarily the same person as before - would take those decisions, questions, concerns and discussion points back to the confederation, where either a consensus would be reached, or further discussion - which could again, be brought back to the neighborhood to share. In fact, rotating the role of delegate would be a really good idea, so that multiple people can get a better idea of the issues in the wider community and understanding of how the bottom-up power structure functions.

                This sounds like a really good idea, but let me point something out: For the sake of efficiency, it would quickly make sense for most neighbourhoods to give their delegate a mandate of the type “We want something like this, but you can make minor changes to points X, Y, and Z in order to reach an agreement with the others”. For example: We want the new road to be a gravel road that’s about 2 m wide, but you can decide the exact quality of gravel, and whether the road is 1.5 m or 2.5 m in the meeting with the others. Whether we have light posts every 40 or 80 meters isn’t so important, as long as the road is well lit (just make sure the lights are strong enough if they’re widely spaced).

                Further, once we get to scaling this up from the neighbourhood level to a scale of hundreds of thousands or millions of people, we’re going to get progressively more details and specialist tasks that need ironing out: Should there be import tariffs on any goods? If so, which? What should the tax be? Should it be progressive? If so, how should it scale? What should be the standard bridge-height on a highway (very useful to standardise if you want any kind of long-haul transport)? How many students should there be per teacher in classrooms at different grade levels, and what kind of education should we require from those teachers? etc. etc. etc. This absolutely massive number of questions that need answering, will in practice demand that your delegate receives some kind of mandate to make decisions within the limits of what you’ve decided.

                The larger the society in question, the wider those limits will need to be in order for the society to be able to reach any kind of consensus within a reasonable time frame. If every detail needs to go neighbourhood meeting (O(100 people) => neighbourhood confederation (O(10 000) people) => community meeting (O(100 000) people) => national meeting (O(1 000 000) people) and back for every iteration, the kids are going to be grown before you’ve decided whether a 5th grade teacher needs minimum high-school level or university level mathematics in order to teach science classes, or even before you’ve decided on whether this should be something you coordinate at the national level or not for that matter.

                Once you start giving your delegates a mandate to make decisions within some pre-determined limits… you’ve reinvented representative democracy.

                • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  23 hours ago

                  For the sake of efficiency, [let’s just revert to representative democracy]

                  Well, if efficiency in decision making is more important than freedom, we may as well just have a dictator, no? With that said, there are anarchist traditions which do propose systems where delegates have limited mandates, you can learn more about that on an anarchist FAQ.

                  I have explained why representative democracy is a system which inevitably leads to corruption and I have outlined for you a basic framework for one possible bottom-up system of direct democracy/consensus decision making. I’ve stated my case, and I think I explained it quite well. I understand that it’s a lot to take in and it seems difficult to achieve, but I fully believe that this system would work very well. It has worked in the past, and it is working right now.

                  As I like to say, I can lead you to water, whether you drink is your prerogative. I hope you take time to reflect on it, and change your mind.

                  Either way, I wish you all the best, much love, solidarity forever!

          • Triumph@fedia.io
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 day ago

            Tyranny of the majority, especially considering that very many people are shit.

            • CrocodilloBombardino@piefed.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 day ago

              not every direct democratic system is majority rule. there are lots of ways to make decisions! remember, we don’t need perfection, just something better than the tyranny of the minority we live under now. we can improve from there.

              anyone seeking to sabotage decision making in bad faith can be handled however a given commune has decided to handle antisocial behavior (rehab, restorative justice, offering therapy, etc).

            • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 day ago

              To add to the very good comment you already received, I would also point you towards an anarchist FAQ’s answer to the question, “Won’t there be a danger of a “tyranny of the majority” under libertarian socialism?”. I will share a few choice paragraphs from there, but I encourage you to check it out yourself as it goes into a lot of detail:

              Participation and self-management is the only way that majorities can come to see the point of minority ideas and for seeing the importance of protecting minority freedoms. This means that any attempt to restrict participation in the name of minority rights actually enforces the herd mentality, undermining minority and individual freedom rather than protecting it.

              In the current system, voters are mere passive spectators of occasional, staged, and highly rehearsed debates among candidates pre-selected by the corporate elite, who pay for campaign expenses. The public is expected to choose simply on the basis of political ads and news sound bites. Once the choice is made, cumbersome and ineffective recall procedures insure that elected representatives can act more or less as they (or rather, their wealthy sponsors) please.

              By contrast, in a libertarian society decisions are made following public discussion in community assemblies open to all. After decisions have been reached, outvoted minorities – even minorities of one – still have ample opportunity to present reasoned and persuasive counter-arguments to try to change the decision. This process of debate, disagreement, challenge, and counter-challenge, which goes on even after the defeated minority has temporarily acquiesced in the decision of the majority, is virtually absent in the representative system, where “tyranny of the majority” is truly a problem. In addition, minorities can secede from an association if the decision reached by it are truly offensive to them.

      • OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 day ago

        Doesnt address the insane amount of optimism with no long-term proof. Zapatista sounds great, but they are focused on the self-determination of indigenous Mayan communities. Its small and niche, different to an entire country with different races all mixed in with different views

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          1 day ago

          Anarchism is completely compatible with individuals acting according to their self interest - indeed, egoist anarchism is entirely centered around that concept, but other anarchist traditions are fully compatible with self-interest. An incredible amount of optimism in human co-operation and selflessness is not necessary.

          they are focused on the self-determination of indigenous Mayan communities

          You’ve unintentionally touched on what makes anarchism so stable - by its very nature because it is built by the people who live and work in an area, it can be perfectly attuned to meet their needs! An anarchist society formed in a city would be completely different from one formed in the rural countryside. It is not an imposed blueprint for society that follows some dogma, it’s an approach where everyone involved in the society has a say in how it’s run, and no one has power over others. That’s all!

    • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 day ago

      Why don’t we compare to some other nations, to see how long they lasted before falling to fascism?

      • Greece: 7-8 months

      • Norway: 2 months

      • France: 6 weeks

      • Poland: 5 weeks

      • Belgium: 18 days

      • Netherlands: 5 days

      • Denmark: 6 hours

      • Revolutionary Spain: 2 years, 9 months

      • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        1 day ago

        That implies that the Anarchists ever took control of the nation away from the Nationalist party which knelt down to the Nazis IMMEDIATELY. So not only was it a failed state, but a failed revolution which never controlled the state.

        • CrocodilloBombardino@piefed.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 day ago

          the point of anarchism is not to control the state, but rather to stop having one. for the territory that made up anarchist Spain, that was successfully achieved. it’s no weakness of anarchism itself to be defeated militarily; all kinds of societies have been defeated militarily.

          • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 day ago

            That’s kind of my point. They didn’t manage to do that. Spain still existed, and even stamped out the anarchists.

            • CrocodilloBombardino@piefed.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 day ago

              they did it for years in a significant territory. the state had no power there during that time. that was a success, even if it was rolled back by a nationalist military (supported by nazi Germany) and undermined by authoritarian communists. also, again, there’s rojava & zapatista Mexico currently, plus other historical examples.

              why are you demanding an impossible standard of perfection before you are willing to fight for a better life for yourself and everyone else? that’s just doomerism and it serves the capitalists.

              • CrocodilloBombardino@piefed.social
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                24 hours ago

                it’s hard to keep your brand new society when the tanks show up immediately. this is not a weakness of anarchism or any political system.

                you can look to rojava and the zapatistas for an example of defense that has worked for years despite long odds.

              • FiniteBanjo@feddit.online
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 day ago

                It’s not an “impossible standard” to expect a movement to create any lasting changes, or even at a bare minimum oppose fascism, to be considered a success.

                • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  1 day ago

                  You’ve had multiple examples of things pointed out to you that meet that standard. It just doesn’t look like anything to you.

                  Liberalism embraces fascism. Liberalism becomes fascism.

                  You are a fascist.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          1 day ago

          The Nationalists were the fucking nazis, my guy, the clue is right there in the name. They were backed by Hitler and Mussolini.

          Clearly, unless the anarchists somehow defeated the German Reich and Italy pretty much single-handedly, you view it as a failure. Yet, while neoliberalism is failing now, you don’t see the failures of liberalism.

  • Tar_Alcaran@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 day ago

    Both of your examples fared incredibly poorly under external pressure and collapsed. Which is pretty much what happens with every poorly aligned group of people.

      • REDACTED@infosec.pub
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        6 hours ago

        Do you not understand what is a state? Zapatista is essentially Amish community within a state. They can exist due to Mexico’s trade deals, security from external factors and bunch of other things the surrounding state is giving/guaranteeing, so it’s quite hard to collapse.

        When you’re in Zaptiska and you get critically sick. Do you die or do you get over yourself and go to a state’s hospital? Who foots the bill?

        It’s like they’re a bunch of roleplayers who have managed to bullshit themselves

        “where governments listen to us” lmao, okay edgelord. The real state does not give a shit about them, neither they listen to them. Only reason they have not been kicked out and banned is because they don’t threaten the actual state and Mexico doesn’t need anything from them.

        I read pretty much all your replies and you remind me of a typical ignorant rebel teenager who doesn’t really understand the world.

      • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        edit-2
        16 hours ago

        last i heard about the zapatistas they were being pressured and were in hiding.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 day ago

          Mexico itself is under a lot of pressure due to the cartels, some of which are armed and supported by the United States to act as a destabilizing force.

          But the Zapatistas are not hiding from the threat. How can a territory with borders containing hundreds of thousands of individuals hide? They are taking the threat seriously, of course, and have heightened security, but aren’t hiding.

          By contrast, Stalin would have probably executed a few thousand innocent people to respond to such a situation.

    • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      1 day ago

      Somalia wasn’t organized according to any anarchist principles, it was just a total chaotic, disordered mess.

      • mr_anny@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        24 hours ago

        Anarchy in definition is not organized by any principles. It’s lack of ruling.

        The moment you insert governing factor, be it principle if you will, it stops being anarchy but follows some guideline.

        Lack of ruling is lack of ruling.

        • bearboiblake@pawb.socialOP
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          23 hours ago

          Anarchy in definition is not organized by any principles. It’s lack of ruling.

          That’s not true - it’s lack of rulers, from the greek “an archos”, meaning “without rulers”. In an anarchist society, there are still rules, but the rules are decided by the people who live and work in a place, rather than a king or a politician or a billionaire or a CEO or whoever. There are many ways to determine what those rules are, such as direct democracy and consensus-based decision making. You might want to check out the Q&Anarchy video series to learn what anarchists actually believe and practice.